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09-02-2011, 03:08 PM
  #90
phlocky
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First off, I never even implied that you said MPS was better than JVR. I never said MPS wasn't a fantastic player that I wouldn't want to have. IMO, having watched them play, JVR is the better player now and barring something major happening, will be in the future too. I believe that any real live NHL GM would NOT see their values as being the same as any GM who had JVR on their team would NEVER trade him straight up for MPS. I'd take the over on the number of GM's that would take JVR over MPS. I do honestly believe that Emd would GLADLY trade MPS for JVR straight up if they could. That means that their trade values are NOT equal.


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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I'm not really sure I agree with you here. First of all, I never once said in this thread that I wouldn't rather have JvR or that in the end MPS is going to be a hall of famer and JvR a nobody. What I am saying, and have been saying this entire time, is that right now, their value is comparable. MPS is younger, playing on a basement dwelling team with less support than JvR, but still putting up similar numbers to JvR when he was a year older. They are both players with high ceilings. I know JvR showed he has some serious ability in that Boston series, and I am not discounting anything he has done or is capable of, but one series doesn't mean he is a better player. Up until pretty much January of last season, I wasn't all that impressed. Now, obviously that has changed since his second half and playoffs were much better.

What I really don't get is how you are so sure of this without backing it up with anything other than saying "just watch them play" and "look at their production versus minutes." When you have a guy like JvR playing on a line with Carter, Richrds, Giroux, Briere etc, I would expect him to get more points than a player of equal talent playing on a line with lesser players. JvR's points in relation to ice time is higher, but its not like he is averaging a shockingly higher amount than MPS, and he has had two seasons under his belt. For all you know MPS drops 60 points this season. Now, I will admit, I have not seen MPS as much as I have seen JvR, obviously. And I would be willing to bet that that is the case for you, especially if you live in the Philadelphia area (maybe I am wrong, but as much as people on here like to think they are experts on every player in the NHL, very few people watch two different teams on a nightly. Maybe you do, but I would bet you don't). And maybe I am wrong and maybe you've seen MPS more than you have seen JvR. But from what I have seen of the two, read of the two, and what the two have output stat-wise, I don't think at this point in their careers you can really say that one's value is higher than the other. And by saying "just watch them play" isn't a great argument, because I could just sit here and say the same thing.
Right there you are wrong. JVr did spend most of his time with Richards at regular strength and his production WAS down. EVERYONE who plays along side richards at even strnegth has their production reduced. It's not a lack of ability on Richards behalf but a result of the FACT that his line was sent out to countermand the opposing teams top line. CARTER had his production drop as a result of playing on Richards line. This is fact, not some made up fantasy. Go look up the numbers if you will. We as a team have repeatedly "rewarded" Richards (and his linemates) for sacraficing point production for shutting down the opposing teams top line because it was best for the team by giving them first line PP duties. Go look up the percentage of points Richards and any of his linemates score on special teams compared to their total points and you'll see that when anyone is paired with Richards, almost without exception they all have a much higher percentage of their points come on special teams compared to when they WEREN'T on Richards line. This goes all the way back to when Gagne was on his wing. I did the numbers for everyone last year and I'm not about to do them again but feel free to look for yourself. Watch Richards put up 70-80 points of more this year when he isn't "saddled" with playing a shutdown role. It's not an indication that Richards somehow got better after leaving Philly nor that he has better linemates now it's that his role on his team has changed.

With JVR being played with Richards, he WAS forced to play a more defensive minded role, he was NOT permitted to open up his full offensive potential, and YES, his numbers were LESS than they could have been.


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I'm not too sure how MPS's lack of Calder consideration really plays into the discussion. Same goes for how they are being brought along. Are you saying that because JvR is being brought along slower that has affected his point outputs and that if MPS was being brought along the same way in the Flyers organization MPS would have fewer points than JvR did and conversely that if JvR was on the Oilers he would have had more points?
To this part, yes. I AM saying that if you switch JVR to the Oilers and MPS to the Flyers for their entire current careers that with Edm JVR's numbers would have been better than they were in Philly and that MPS's numbers would be worse with Philly than they were in Edm. It's all in how they would be and were used. I fail to see how this can be tough to understand. Did you watch JVR the past 2 years and how defensive responsible he's become?? Did you see how in his first year the Flyers only used JVR in limited situations and primarily only at even strength?? Is it so hard to understand that when you have guys like Briere, Carter, Richards, Gagne, Giroux, Hartnell, Versteeg, Leino and others that you don't HAVE to throw a rookie out there on the PP nor do you have to depend upon them to carry the offensive workload compared to a team like Edm that has very little experienced offensive talent and who HAD to throw guys like Hall and MPS into the fold right away and EXPECT them to carry the workload??? How is this tough to understand???

JVR is CERTAINLY talented enough to have been thrown into a role where he was counted on to carry a major portion of the offense and if he had then I'm certain that he WOULD have gotten some serious Calder consideration. I;m not saying he'd have won it but that he WOULD have been in the discussion that year. Even on a weak offense team like Edm, MPS was fairly underwhelming having been given to opportunity to excel and he was NOT in consideration for the Calder.

I am in no way calling him a bust. Quite the opposite, I REALY REALLY like him and he was my #2 pick that year and I still think he's going to be a great player.

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