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09-07-2011, 11:20 PM
  #88
jarek
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Kind of like the assumption that leading a team in icetime automatically makes you good?
When did I EVER say that? That is seventies' position, not mine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
It's a much bigger feather in his cap than leading a mediocre team in ice time.
It doesn't mean he was good defensively.

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Somewhat related:

In 2009-10 when Chicago won the Cup, Campbell actually tied with Brent Seabrook for 2nd on the team in average ice time in the regular season. That team was 5th in the league in goals against and 2nd in the league (after the regular season wonder Capitals) in goal differential. And this was not one of the 3 seasons in which Campbell was selected to play in the All Star game.
That had a lot more to do with the very responsible forwards and Keith/Seabrook, who played against the other teams' best players. Campbell was also getting better defensively by this time, so this shouldn't surprise anyone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post

  1. Gibbs played in the 1970s, not the 1980s. It's kinda important - it's why I keep harping on his relative lack of competition for awards recognition and how most of the league's best players were concentrated on a few teams. If you still didn't realize that, then it really doesn't seem like you are interested in anything going on in this series, other than anti-Campbell trolling.
  2. So now we're judging Brian Campbell on what he did before he was in his prime? Do we get to do that to every player or just the guy who apparently slept with your sister?
Point 1: Sorry, my mistake. I still do not submit to this idea of relativism for many things, and I probably never will.

Point 2: Don't you? If we only want to look at the good seasons that players played, then why do we count the seasons that players played poorly and use it against them when it comes time to arguing? Specifically, poor playoffs. How do we even determine what "prime" is? When they get good? So in other words, when it's convenient. The awful seasons that players had don't just disappear, and they should certainly count for something.. otherwise, what's the point of continuing the draft after Bobby Orr gets taken? Nobody could stop Orr in his prime.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
And where did Gibbs carry his team?
I'm not defending Gibbs here, I'm pointing out the flaws in your logic, and how they can be used against you in the same way. What Gibbs did not do is what Gibbs did not do, but Gibbs also did quite a lot of good things in his career too. If he was leading his teams in ice time for so many years, that means SOMETHING, doesn't it? The same argument you're trying to use for Campbell..

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Wait, I thought Campbell sucked?
I don't even know what to say to this. Facts are facts.

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Boyle, Vlasic, Blake, Ehrhoff - most people who actually watched the games thought that was one of the best top 4s in the league.

San Jose traded Ehrhoff because they were so stacked, they didn't need him.

So basically, he was a top guy on great teams like we said.
They didn't need a supposedly top flight defenseman, huh? That's great logic.. or maybe they kept Vlasic instead of Ehrhoff because they saw the flaws in Ehrhoff's play and chose to keep the more stable Vlasic?

Moreover, those D-corps were no better than average from my recollection. 1 or 2 good defensemen at the top does not make the whole D-corps. Many teams had much better #1s and #2s.. these defenses were strong because of DEPTH.. not top end talent.. and Ehrhoff could only crack the top pairing once. If I looked harder into it, I bet that he probably led these teams in PP TOI/G, and was outclassed in ES time. In fact, I'll do that right now:

07-08: Vlasic and Campbell, when he arrived, were beating Ehrhoff in ES TOI/G by healthy amounts. Ehrhoff was relegated to the #3 at ES after Campbell. Ehrhoff was 5th in PP TOI/G, and 2nd in SH TOI/G.
08-09: Ehrhoff 2nd in PP TOI/G, 3rd in ES TOI/G, 5th in SH TOI/G.
09-10: Essentially 1st in PP TOI/G, 2nd in ES TOI/G, 4th in SH TOI/G.
10-11: 2nd in PP TOI/G, led the team in ES TOI/G, 5th in SH TOI/G.

Interesting results. Seems like he did fine at ES, but struggled to ever find his way on the PK units.

Quote:
Originally Posted by overpass View Post
Are you seriously suggesting that Henrik Tallinder and Toni Lydman would barely crack any other team's lineup? They were solid defensive defencemen who played against the other team's top lines every night, and every coach in the NHL would have loved to have either one on his team. They would have been top-4 on most other NHL teams, maybe bottom pairing on a stacked team.

Did you ever watch those Buffalo teams play?
Of course I watched them play.. the Leafs kept losing 33-2 against them.

I was never impressed with the Buffalo D-corps. The only thing I noticed about them was that Brian Campbell didn't know what "wait for your teammates" meant, and often raced ahead of everyone else. He definitely had wheels. Even though they were stacked at forward and had Campbell, they were only average on the PP, and even worse on the PK. They got by mainly on their even strength play, and Ryan Miller. There were a lot of teams that had better options for D, and the Buffalo guys will never see the ATD. They just weren't that special.

For what it's worth, Lydman was 3rd last year on the Ducks in TOI/G among D, barely ahead of the rookie, Fowler. Beauchemin, who probably also will never see the ATD (and if someone actually did draft him when I wasn't paying attention, god help them), was well ahead of him in TOI/G. Nothing wrong with Beauchemin, but this tells me all I need to know about Lydman. He's a #3-4 on most teams. Both him and Tallinder were just solid, but unspectacular defensemen.. but not all time greats, and they never will be.

I will never understand this love for modern defensive defensemen. We've all seen them play, true.. but there are so many comparable guys, it's not even funny. For my money, I'll take Dan Girardi ahead of both of these guys in an ATD. I think he's better defensively than either of Tallinder or Lydman ever were, and I'm not even sure if he'll ever crack a top-6 in the ATD. Unless you can show me something that proves otherwise, Girardi has actually had notable all time seasons, even if he'll never win an award for what he does.

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