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09-09-2011, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
that sounds a bit like just glossing over the fact that some coaches are better and worse at one special team or the other.

games are still won at ES... roughly 80% of the game is played at ES.
Julien as great at the PK and Muckler on the PP, happy? Many teams have an assistant coach run one or both special teams.

So what special teams are Bun Cook good at?

ES is most important, but special teams are certainly important as well, especially in the playoffs. Maybe a quick refresher of what these votes mean is appropriate.
I agree McKay is 1st. But I don't see how it's possible to place the next three as anything but Regina players. A couple little quotes about Patey (one by Patey himself) doesn't put him above Grier, or on Tucker's level. We all saw Tucker, there is no doubt he was a fearless little fireball. Grier was called Grier is a hockey player in a football player's body. He is an aggressive forechecker and bores in on the unfortunate puck carrier with all of the intensity of a lineman blitzing a quarterback... frightens a lot of people into mistakes... honest, tough, physical winger... A power forward... one of the premier cornerman in the league... won't hesitate to bull his way through two defenseman... intimidating physical presence... great strength and is almost impossible to knock down... Powerful winger with intimidating size and strength, he has impressive straightaway speed and can alter a game's momentum with his punishing hits... His size and strength along the boards is unparalleled... hard-hitting physical style... a veritable force along the boards ... - Patey is none of the above.
I'm not going to get in one of these stupid quote wars, where the GM who finds the most quotes that say the exact same thing wins.

I stand by the fact that Patey was at least as tough as Tucker. Much of Tucker's "toughness" came from cheap-shotting guys when the refs weren't looking, then he'd hide behind the refs or turtle when challenged. It's why he was an effective agitator, but it doesn't make him tougher than Patey. The dude is 5'10, 178 pounds FFS.

Maybe I underestimated Grier. He was much physically stronger than the likes of Tucker. I ranked him so low based on "intimidation factor" but maybe that wasn't accurate.
McKay peaked at 9th in selke voting, Grier was 14th once. You said there's not much difference there, right? I don't keep detailed records past 15th, but I know Grier got votes in four other seasons. What about McKay?
We're talking even strength defense here - Grier was an actual PKer and got extra Selke recognition for that.

If you want to say that Butcher is your agitator, fair enough. he is the worst defenseman in the series by a country mile so if he has to be out there for that, good for me.
What makes Gibbs that much better than Butcher?

At one point, I told vecens that the only right handed defensemen available from MLD2010 were Butcher, Gibbs, and Krupp. I preferred Krupp, but vecens wasn't impressed and he was drafted first anyway. I honestly couldn't tell which of Gibbs and Butcher was better. Now that I compare profiles, I think Gibbs was probably a little better than Butcher, but I doubt it was by that much.

I can definitely tell you one thing - I would much rather have Butcher as a #6 than Gibbs as a #4.

That doesn't really answer the whole question though. I have a whole line that will forecheck like demons and drive your defensemen bonkers. there is a long history of unsung energy lines like this making very appreciated contributions to winning teams with their momentum-changing, bang and crash style. Eden Hall's version is simply not as effective at this kind of game.
Correct. Your 4th line is built to be bang and crash line that is also competent defensively, Eden Hall's 4th line is built to be pure shutdown line that is also quite effective at a bang and crash game.

Seriously though, how many Cup winning teams had 4th lines that were pure bang and crash lines? The Detroit Red Wings had Maltby-Draper-McCarthy, which is actually a very similar makeup to Tippett-Patey-McKay. That's what our line is modeled after.

Come on. Gibbs' reputation for a decade was that he was a defensive defenseman. Campbell started off as a fringe NHLer for 4 years (and it wasn't his offensive skills that made him a fringe player), and since then has ranged from excellent specialist to good support player to top-10 d-man, but has never been considered better than below average defensively.
I think in Campbell's best years, he was considered average defensively, at least by NHL standards. Obviously, he is below average defensively by MLD standards.

I see one quote that is full of hyperbole "impossible to beat one on one" about Gibbs' defensive play in his profile. Most of the quotes are about his offense (which is way below Campbell's statistically) and toughness.

I'll retract the statement somewhat in that Gibbs was known for defensive play, but I still don't think he's been shown to be anything noteworthy at reducing goals against. Campbell is excellent at skating the puck out of trouble, which helps a team's goals against quite a bit, even if he's not that great when the other team has the puck. We saw in the 2010 playoffs what an asset that is.

(Al Hamilton wasn't better, and I'd be curious to know which Swede was, too)
Well, I think Al Hamilton was better than Gibbs. As for the Swedes, Salming didn't come over until 73-74 when he was 22 years old and may very well have been better than Gibbs when still in Sweden. Hard to tell.

Come on, you have to admit this doesn't look very bad for Gibbs, at all.
I don't think Gibbs is bad at all. But he's definitely the worst player in either team's top 4 by a solid margin. Garth Butcher is the worst overall defenseman (though please indulge me and tell me why he's so much worse than Gibbs). Someone has to be the worst, even if he's pretty good too.

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