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09-09-2011, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Julien as great at the PK and Muckler on the PP, happy? Many teams have an assistant coach run one or both special teams.

So what special teams are Bun Cook good at?
You know I can't answer that with anything better than "I assume he was pretty good at both if his teams kept winning championships like it was going out of style".

I'm not going to get in one of these stupid quote wars, where the GM who finds the most quotes that say the exact same thing wins.
It's not a "stupid quote war", a lot of times things change throughout their careers and you can track it in the reports. think back to Turgeon, or Rick Green, or Mike Bullard, or Mark Messier. With Grier, we have a 15-year established track record of being a pretty formidable physical force (backed up by nearly a career's worth of hit stats as well). I don't really need to hammer this home, as you've admitted it now.

I stand by the fact that Patey was at least as tough as Tucker. Much of Tucker's "toughness" came from cheap-shotting guys when the refs weren't looking, then he'd hide behind the refs or turtle when challenged. It's why he was an effective agitator, but it doesn't make him tougher than Patey. The dude is 5'10, 178 pounds FFS.
(this is where BC coming in here to be the Fox News to jarek's MSNBC could actually be beneficial to me for a change, haha)

Tucker didn't just turtle! Even though he lost a lot, the dude fought 101 times against opponents that averaged 6'1", 203. He was a great and frequent bodychecker who absolutely leveled some guys, both in open ice and against the boards. he often reminded me of Peca with his bodychecking. There were definitely some cheap shots here and there... it's part of the package. The guy was all heart.

We all saw this and we all know this. The info on Patey is very sparse right now. If he was in Tucker's class for intangibles it wouldn't be too hard to find some stuff in google news, because Tucker is literally all over the place - the guy made headlines with the way he played.

If it's legitimate for you to ask me how Bun Cook will run a PP, then it's legitimate for me to ask you for some more quotes about Larry Patey's physicality/toughness, that aren't from Larry Patey himself.

We're talking even strength defense here - Grier was an actual PKer and got extra Selke recognition for that.
The other thing I thought of was that McKay was often, if not always, the 3rd-best defensive player on his own line. The success of his line was less his doing than the other players, generally. On the other hand, considering he is clearly the 3rd-best defensive player on your line, I probably can't hold that against him, can I?

What makes Gibbs that much better than Butcher?

At one point, I told vecens that the only right handed defensemen available from MLD2010 were Butcher, Gibbs, and Krupp. I preferred Krupp, but vecens wasn't impressed and he was drafted first anyway. I honestly couldn't tell which of Gibbs and Butcher was better. Now that I compare profiles, I think Gibbs was probably a little better than Butcher, but I doubt it was by that much.

I can definitely tell you one thing - I would much rather have Butcher as a #6 than Gibbs as a #4.
hmm, sounds like you really think Gibbs is our #6.

Butcher was never more than a slightly above-average player aside from a couple of years. He made the ASG but surely you don't believe that is an indication of being top-12 in the league or anything, right?

you sure don't sound impressed at being the #1 on a bad team, what about being the #3 or 4 on a bad team?

1983: #7 on a .469 team
1984: #8 on a .456 team (received #7 minutes when playing but split time in the minors, unlike the actual #7, who didn't)
1985: #5 on a .369 team
1986: #6 on a .369 team (5.5, as Bubla played just half a year)
1987: #4 on a .413 team
1988: #3.5 on a .369 team (thanks to Huber's half season in VAN)
1989: #3 on a .463 team
1990: #3 on a .400 team
1991: #2.5 on a .406 team (Kurvers half year)
1992: #3 on a .519 team (this is his highlight, 11 seasons in)
1993: #2.5 on a .506 team (Norwood half season)
1994: season split almost evenly between #3 on a .542 team and #3 on a .452 team
1995: #5 on a .521 team

how would one spin that to say Butcher is close to Gibbs at all?

Correct. Your 4th line is built to be bang and crash line that is also competent defensively, Eden Hall's 4th line is built to be pure shutdown line that is also quite effective at a bang and crash game.

Seriously though, how many Cup winning teams had 4th lines that were pure bang and crash lines? The Detroit Red Wings had Maltby-Draper-McCarthy, which is actually a very similar makeup to Tippett-Patey-McKay. That's what our line is modeled after.
Are you kidding? That line is ALL bang and crash and grind. It's a classic. Your line does not have that kind of spunk.

Well, I think Al Hamilton was better than Gibbs. As for the Swedes, Salming didn't come over until 73-74 when he was 22 years old and may very well have been better than Gibbs when still in Sweden. Hard to tell.
It's almost certain that Salming was better, yes. because he was instantly better in 1974. I was more wondering about the rest of the 70s, though.

Hamilton? He was a #6 for NY in 1970 and then #1 for a pisspoor Buffalo team in 1971, then a #3 for the same team in 1972 when two better players came in. (and they were still poor). Fast forward to 1980 when he returned, and he was just the #4 of an Edmonton team that was well below .500.

Good offensive record in the WHA, but I see little other than a 1978 1st all-star team to suggest he could have anchored even an average NHL team's blueline for even one season.

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