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12-14-2011, 09:41 PM
  #102
VanIslander
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Groshev played in 15 international games that mattered, scoring 18 points...
No goals against Czechoslovakia or Sweden. Maybe some assists? Beating up on West Germany and Poland in "games that mattered" matter less to me than so-called mere exhibition matches against the best two or three international teams of the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Groshev is a 3-time First team all-star in the Soviet league (1959, 1960, 1962). There was no available player who had done this even twice. Just six one-timers, all from the 1958-1963 era, now remain. (plus a few 80s goalies and two post-1990 players)
So your point is he stands out as the next-best Soviet pick because of his domestic league accolades? Maybe no more Soviets ought to be drafted then, or maybe domestic league accomplishments, especially in a clearly lesser era, ought to be secondary instead of primary in considerations of all-time merit?

Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Groshev scored 236 goals in 450 USSR league games for an average of 0.52 per game. Konstantin Loktev, considered a bonafide ATDer, scored 0.63 per game, in 110 fewer games, with far superior linemates, in a career that both started and ended a few years earlier, meaning he faced slightly lesser competition domestically. Who was the more offensively talented player? Let’s pretend the other factors don’t matter and simply look at raw GPG. Groshev scored at 84% Loktev’s rate. You tell me, where do most players who score at a rate of 84% of a bonafide ATDer get selected? Starshinov’s average was 0.75 per game domestically, meaning Groshev scored at about 69% his rate. You tell me – where do most players who score at a rate of 69% of a bonafide ATD second liner get selected?
To be clear: Loktev does have intangibles and international success that make him an all-time great Bottom-6 forward; Starshinov is a legit 2nd liner in a 40-team main ATD for reasons other than domestic league scoring. I see your reasoning but don't buy it: it's like comparing a major juniors star who never went to the pros to someone who continued into the pros and starred there too. There are plenty of junior stars who couldn't raise their game to the next level, and Groshev didn't, not against the top teams internationally, not even staying on the national team long. That means a huge question mark remains as to whether his domestic league scoring would have translated well to games against the best. Now, what domestic league team did he play for and against? If he scored a lot against the Red Army team then THAT is significant. Most of that league though was chopped liver, like those 18 international points he got weren't against the Czechs or Swedes!

Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
As for Makarov… why snipe at me now over this? I would address your points but I addressed them all very well back in the AAA and received nary a response from you – AS USUAL
You are under the impression that having the last word means you've won. There's no contest. One person makes a point and if another makes a counterpoint then sometimes things stand like that, they agree to disagree and third parties make up their own minds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Both The Red Machine and Road To Olympus are excellent books that document the soviet history and systems rather well, but don’t try to tell someone who has read them both, that they are excellent resources on individual players. They aren’t anything close to that. There are fleeting references to perhaps 100 players, most of whom are mentioned once and never again.
This is the sort of reasoning that makes me not even want to reply to it. I think I have amply demonstrated in my research and extensive quotes in bios that both of those books have plenty of good stuff on individual players, most recently my Svetlov and Romishevsky bios, hell the last page's Gimayev had quotes from The Red Machine about Gimayev's sparkling play with Makarov and the punchfest he had with a USA player, among the multiple references to Gimayev. There are no references in the index to your draftee Groshev and I have counted 121 Soviet player references in the index of that one book alone. Of course, if your point was that it is possible for a player to be significant and not even mentioned in those two great hockey books then fine. But to try and broadstroke the texts as if they don't talk much about players is misleadingly dismissive.

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