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01-27-2012, 04:01 PM
Talks to Goalposts
Join Date: Apr 2011
Originally Posted by
Ghost # 1
A Superstar player... is someone who has performed at an admirable level, enough to warrant recognition by his peers. I did not say he didnt get a star player or 2. The superstars he drafted... Price (3 Allstar appearances) Komi (1 Allstar appearance, and it is debateable due to the fact that almost everyone disagreed that he should have even of been there) & Streit (1 Allstar appearance)
1 Goalie, 2 defencemen.
I have defined the other 11.5 picks as Impactual players... Not necessarily stars, but solid, serviceable NHL hockey players. That 14.5/50 is not as pretty a number as the 31/50 who tasted the NHL (no matter how relatively small their careers were (i.e. Duncan Milroy and his 5 games, or Martti Jarventie and his 1 game). He's heralded as finding all these guys who have contributed... But how many with some significance?
29% over 11 years... 9 of them really counting. (as I also said the 09-11 years are too early to say anything deep about.
Your bolded comment is the fallacy that I am talking about that makes Timmins overrated.
But 14.5 players with significant NHL careers in that timeframe is nothing to write home about. as the other 16.5 are NOT playing significant roles in the NHL. I DONT consider 4th liners to be impactual.
I havent said he did a horrific job... I said his record is much lower than what people praise him for (like he's a be all end all).
I said, I am not the biggest supporter of him maintaining a position here. I still maintain he is overrated, due to the #'s looking so good in re: to how many of his picks MADE the NHL. yet, what isnt mentioned in relation to this number is that 1/2 of those guys are not anything more than guys who had a relative taste as an NHL'er or play very minor roles (#6 d, or 4th liner/spare).
Here's the breakdown:
Superstar Players (3):
Komisarek 7th overall (all star '09)
Price 5th overall (all star '09 '11 '12)
Streit (all star '09)
2 top 10 picks, and a homerum 9th rounder from 01-08.
Impactual Players (11.5):
Plekanec (top 6 center) (3rd rd)
Higgins 14th (top 9 winger)(1st rd, 14th)
Kostitsyn 10th (top 6/9 winger) (1st rd 10th)
Halak (starting goalie) (9th rd)
Grabovski (top 6 center) (5th rd)
Latendresse (top 9 winger) (2nd rd)
S.Kostitsyn (top 6 winger) (7th rd)
D'agostini (top 9 winger) (6th rd)
Pacioretty (1st rd, 22nd overall) (top 6 winger)
Subban (top 2/4 d-man) (2nd rd)
McDonough 12th overall (top 4 d-man) (1st rd 12th overall)
Weber (the 0.5, because to date, he hasnt solidified anything yet) (currently 6/sp d.)
That's 3 1sts, 2 2nds, 2 3rds, 1 5th, 1 6th, 1 7th, and 1 9th
relatively Minor significant players (15.5):
Perezhogin 1st rd, 25th overall (top 9 winger, went home after 2 yrs never came back)
Milroy (5 nhl games) (2nd)
Jarventie (1 nhl game) (4th)
Deveaux (37 nhl games after going unsigned, and touring the AHL) (6th)
Ferland (1 nhl game) (7th)
Lapierre (4th line c) (2nd)
O'Byrne (5/6 d) (3rd)
Flood (spare d. went unsigned, and toiled in the AHL for years) (6th)
Chipchura 18th overall (4th line c) (1st rd)
Emelin (love him... but he's only 37 games in, 7 yrs after his draft... summer will decide IMO) (3rd rd)
Wyman (starting to cut in as a 4th liner in TB after years in Hamilton) (4th)
Stewart (26 games) (8th)
Maxwell (43 games) (2nd)
White (4th liner, 43 games in) (3rd)
Carle (3 nhl games) (2nd)
Weber (the other 0.5) (potentially could be more... but needs to establish more at this point) (3rd)
2 X 1st rd 4 X 2nd rd 4 X 3rd rd 2 X 4th rd 2 X6th rd 1 X 7th rd 1 X8th rd
Never did anything (30):
Dulac-Lemelin 9th rd
Paquet 7th rd
Fischer 1st Rd 20th overall
Torp 6th rd
Kishel (7th rd)
Kristo (2nd rd)
Quailler (3rd rd)
Missaien (4th rd)
Trunev (5th rd)
Johnson (7th rd)
That's 3 3rds, 2 2nd's and a colossal 1st that amounted to absolutely NOTHING. add to that 4 4th's and 5 5th rounders... bear in mind, that's ONLY from 00-08.
It has very little to do with draft position... 14.5 is NOT a high number... All I did to get that number is take away the guys who have not made an impact in the nhl, in regards to becoming something MORE than a 4th liner, or a 6th d. I wouldnt classify, for example, a Radulov, simply because he didnt make an all-star team, or a trophy.. as an exceptional player... he could be considered impactual, due to the fact that he IS a top 6 player, and still demands enough attention to have teams desire him for them (as is not the case for example, Perezhogin... who went home as a guy having a hard time cracking the top 6, and aside form his one year in russia, has been heard little else from).
From 01-07, we WASTED 3 1st rounders, and 6 2nd rounders...
I simply state his record is much more exaggerated than what people are literally giving him credit for...
Espescially with 2 things (major) to consider...
Not ONE Superstar season from a TT draft pick in Montreal. NOT ONE. Has he made good NHL'ers? sure... Is he a good scout... sure... he isnt bad. After all this time however, with nothing to show for in those 2 respective departments... Makes me think it might be time to give another person a shot.
Size, which has been an issue since his arrival, HAS NEVER been addressed through the draft.
I for one would NOT be upset if a new guy came in with a lower %age, however had more guys making bigger marks (i.e. more hits and misses, but BETTER hits). Outside of Mark Streit... He really hasnt had anyone who really smoked one.. Komi is a top 10 pick, and it's even debateable that he should be on the list. But I left him where he is, DUE to the fact that he IS a former allstar.
I am NOT saying I dont like players on the OTHER lists... (I actually think White is awesome, Pleky too, and actually hope better things for Kristo, Emelin and Chipchura)...
All I am saying is that for a guy who is so renowned for being a drafting genius... He really hasnt hit the mark here as much as people make it out to be.
Problem is that your comparing him to whatever imaginary ideal you have in your head instead of what the Habs drafting should be compared against, the drafts of other NHL teams. Not many teams get better value for their picks then Montreal does.
I'm pretty sure the scout that could have satisfied your standards for the picks Montreal had doesn't exist in the real world.
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