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03-14-2012, 09:14 AM
  #56
Lafleurs Guy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onice View Post
Despite what all the tankers are falsely claiming in this thread, the truth is that over the last 10-15 years only one team that tanked regularly has won the Cup and that's Chicago.
Last 15 years? With all due respect you don't know what you're talking about.

Detroit, NJ, Colorado all tanked regularly and then won multiple cups. Dallas had Modano, Tampa had Lecavalier, Carolina had Staal, Chicago had Toews and Kane... all top picks.

It goes on and on man.

Quote:
Originally Posted by onice View Post
If you include the Pens then you're mistaken. Crosby on top of being a generational player was also a roll of the dice. If Pittsburgh hadn't won the walk out crap shoot they would never have won the SC. Look at the Pens today, are they a SC contender without Crosby?
Actually you are mistaken. First, even without Crosby they still had Fleury, Staal and Malkin leading the way for them. Malkin is going to win the Hart this year and won the Conn Smythe that season. Secondly, the year before that draft the Pens came in last place. It was not an equal lottery with every team having an equal shot. It was a weighted lottery with the worst teams having the best odds. It's not surprising that the worst team from the previously played season won the lottery.

In fact, if they hadn't gotten Crosby it would've been seen as extremely unlucky. Just like the Caps were extremely unlucky in how they wound up 15th that year and we got 5th.

The only team that was REALLY lucky that year was us.
Quote:
Originally Posted by onice View Post
The Caps, the Oilers, the Islanders, Panthers, Columbus, they've had many terrible losing seasons and they still haven't won anything.
The Isles (as you seem to be deliberately ignoring) are the poster child for rebuilding. They dealt away what would've been a Stanley cup contending team. They strengthen the rebuilding argument so I'm not sure why you want to use them as an example.

The Oilers actually traded away picks and prospects and didn't have a sustained period of high picks until now. It's silly to cite them because their players are 18 and 19 years old.

Columbus actually hasn't drafted high and they've ruined propects (see Steve Mason earlier in this thread)

The Panthers had three top five picks earlier this decade and it yielded them three good players but no stars.

Plus what do these clubs have in common? Very, very bad management. Dealing away Roberto Luongo for a bag of rice (which happened with both the Isles and Florida) is not the way to win cups. It doesn't matter how many great prospects you have. If you have bad management you won't win. Period.

Quote:
Originally Posted by onice View Post
So I don't buy this nonsense that you need to tank for 2-3-4 years and you'll win the Cup.
Nobody including me has said that if you tank for 4 years you'll win a cup. All you are doing here is deliberately misunderstanding and distorting a position of rebuilding. You aren't gaining any crediblity with anyone by doing this.

What rebuilders have said is that superstars are an essential ingredient to winning cups. If you don't have at least one, it's going to be very hard to win without one. Superstars are found with top picks. The more you have, the better your chances at a superstar. Without a superstar, you probably won't win.

Sometimes you get your superstar with one pick. Sometimes it takes forever to find him. But if you draft high long enough, you're likely to find a superstar.

But a superstar alone is not going to win you a cup.
Quote:
Originally Posted by onice View Post
Also, the problem with the Habs the past 10 years isn't that we haven't had players that could bring us to the finals. It's that we had 2 brain dead GMs who squandered away the riches provided to them by TT and his scouting team.
It's both.

Even if you assembled the best players we've had over the last decade on this team we're still not going to win a cup. We might advance through the playoffs but over the long haul, it's not going to be good enough to win a cup.
Quote:
Originally Posted by onice View Post
During the last 10 years if we had a GM with half a brain he would have traded the excess talent for talent that we lacked. Players that have been shipped out of Montreal for nothing in return.

Ryder
Lats
Beauchemin
McDonagh
Ribeiro
Higgins
Lapierre
D'Agostini
Sergei K
Theodore
Valentenko
Vokoun
Streit
Grabovsky
Perezhogin
Hainsay

That's 16 players who had some value and we got nothing in return (except for McDonagh & Higgins we got negative value back). Then you add all the draft picks that were pi$$ed away for one year patches. I understand SOME of those players had to go but not all of them and not for zip in return.
Who's going to give you a superstar for Chris Higgins? Who's going to give you a superstar for Mike Ribeiro?

Look, I agree we've done a terrible job of managing assets but we ALSO haven't drafted high and that's what's really killed us. There's not a single superstar in that list. The only one who may become one is McD who we traded away as a prospect.

So... have we done a horrible job managing assets? Yes. But we haven't had a superstar to begin with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by onice View Post
With TT in place all we needed was a GM who was capable of seeing what he had and what he needed. Not the two imbeciles we have had in placed who devalued their players and then unloaded them or released for nothing.

Or let me put it another way. If we will tank the next 5 years and get the #1 pick each year and Gauthier and Gainey (or someone like them) are still around, we ain't gonna win didley squat. They'll devalue those picks or other prospects and get rid of them after a few years.
That's right. Doesn't matter how many great prospects you have. If you have an idiot GM (ie Milbury) you aren't going anywhere.

And the sad thing is, even if you do everything right you still might not win. Look at Ottawa. They had a great team, did everything right, traded for prospects and top picks. They were packed with stars but never won (although the strike happened at the worst possible time for them) so you can do everything right and still not go anywhere. Hell, look at Washington. Great team that has suddenly forgotten how to play hockey.

That doesn't negate the fact that top picks generate superstars though. And it doesn't negate superstars winning cups. Not every rebuild team is going to win a cup and even doing everything right might not win you anything... but at least you're giving yourself the best possible chance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by onice View Post
We don't need to tank. We need a GM with some foresight and some intelligence.
A GM with foresight and intelligence would have recognized the need for top picks years ago. Esp considering our constant 8th place finishes with no superstars on the roster.


Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 03-14-2012 at 09:20 AM.
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