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04-06-2012, 11:29 PM
  #128
Lafleurs Guy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
Hawks never tanked ,, Wirtz didn't give a #### about product on ice and spent very little on development/etc
The Hawks absolutely did tank. 4 top ten picks (3 top 5) in 4 years IS tanking. Not intentionally maybe but they 'tanked.' And I'm not suggesting we lose intentionally btw. I'm suggesting we stay patient and stick to the draft and developing our prospects.

Wirtz was an idiot. If he had lived probably would've dealt away those young prospects. The Hawks succeeded DESPITE him being an idiot. So have a lot of teams. Rebuilding has worked whether it was intentional (Detroit, Colorado) or not (Pittsburgh tried to add all kinds of vets with Crosby and failed.)

Bottom line though is that he got top picks and died before he could screw up those top picks. The DID tank (intentionally or not) and got two great players out of it that were key members of that cup winning team.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
And for those that love to bring up Toews/Kane I would remind them the other 2 high picks Hawks got before those 2

2004 - Cam Barker #3
2005 - Jack Skille #7
So what? The STILL got TWO star players out of it. We haven't had a forward as good as either one of those guys since maybe Lafleur. And how did we get him? The Canadiens drafted high throughout the 70s. Many of those picks turned out to be busts. But they still ended up with Guy Lafleur and Steve Shutt in the top five. Detroit was horrible at drafting back in the 80s and actually Yzerman was not their first choice but... they still landed one of the best players of all time and a guy who they rebuilt their team around.

I'd be perfectly happy to draft top five over the next few years and wind up with two superstars. You add them to what we already have and we'd be contenders for sure. I'd hope (and expect) that we won't be top five bottom feeders over the next few seasons but if we are, I hope that mgmt isn't dumb enough to short circuit things with more Brian Gionta type signings that lead us nowhere.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
Also Toews falling to Hawks was more a result of Pens/Blues not valuing him as highly as EJ/Staal and we won draft lotto in Kane years ,,, Team wasn't supposed to pick #1
And Detroit didn't want Yzerman... they wanted Lafontaine. Guess what? When you draft high and another team screws up you can actually do something about it and capitalize on the mistake. If you're drafting 20th and you know that the club picking higher screwed up... it's still meaningless because you can't get them. You can only watch and cry as St. Louis takes Chris Pronger, the guy you KNEW was better than Daigle.

Moreover, look at the Detroit example is it so bad if you wind up with Pat Lafontaine instead? No. You might STILL get a star player even if you mess it up.

And btw, Erik Johnson could very well have been the best player in that draft. His first season was great and then he crushed his leg and missed the entire 2nd season. We'll never know how good he could've been. Sometimes stuff happens that's just plain beyond your control.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
Drafting high doesn't = Path to Cup
By itself it doesn't. But drafting high has certainly worked for Detroit, Colorado, NJ, Pittsburgh, Montreal, Chicago, Islanders...

Drafting high certainly has worked for most Stanley Cup winners. Most have a top pick leading the way for them. That's just a fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
It takes more then 2 good young players to compete in NHL... Hawks didn't take next step until guys like Keith/Seabrook/Hjalmarsson/Sharp/Buff/Bolland/Versteeg/Ladd/etc developed (Steeger/Ladd/Sharp acquired via trades)
No doubt about it. Not sure where you got the idea that I'd disagree.

Joe Sakic (a pick Quebec traded for in a rebuilding move btw) was useless by himself. So was Yzerman and so was Mario Lemieux. Of course you need to surround those guys with a good team. But if you have a good team AND Mario Lemieux you've got a pretty big advantage over your opponents. Add in a second star (like Jagr) and it's even better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
Also big FA's like Hossa/Campbell/Khabibulin helped pull team out of the dark age
Right. Because they already had a good core. It makes perfect sense to trade away a prospect for a vet when you've already got a good team. It makes sense to go after free agents who will put you over the top.

It doesn't make a whole lot of sense though to just go after FAs to try to build your core with when you aren't contenders. That's because the best FAs probably won't want to come to a club that's not a contender in the first place. It's rare for superstars to become FAs in their prime in the first place and when they do (like Niedermayer) they usually want to go to a specific place.

Let the Leafs pursue the FA market. Let them make the shortcuts. We tried it and it was a howling failure. Moreover, we've got the best scouting in the NHL! Why not actually use this to our advantage more? It's mind boggling that we haven't done this.

Do you think that going after a guy like Marian Hossa is going to lead this team anywhere? He doesn't do anything for us except make us playoff contenders and not good enough for a cup. That's exactly the opposite of the kind of move we need.


Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 04-06-2012 at 11:39 PM.
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