Thread: Speculation: Would you take Carle back?
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05-15-2012, 07:57 PM
  #160
VanSciver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
You've quoted BSH, a website with a clear bias towards Carle who desperately twists any stat they can to support their view while ignoring anything that makes Carle look bad. BSH once compared him to Chara and Lidstrom. Hardly a good source, definitely no better than the general opinion formulated by the hivemind of the Flyers fanbase...the opinion that is, generally, that Carle is decent but flawed and definitely not worth a big cap hit. I mean, let's be real: they say Carle is the same as Suter. That's insanity. Anybody with a shred of sense knows Suter is better than Carle by a good margin.
It's an excellent source. Because the author clearly offers factual data to back up his opinion. He didn't twist a single stat. He offered reasonable deductions based on facts. Which clearly, you haven't. And the worse source is the Flyers fanbase. It's not a legitimate source by any means. For obvious reasons that are proven on here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
Dustin Leed: Just ruined any credibility he might have by spewing stats without context to claim Carle is equal to Suter. Suter is more effective than Carle. When Carle was playing with Pronger, he looked worse than he did without him because he was routinely facing top competition and getting abused. Suter faces the same sort of competition with Weber and holds his own. That's without going into the fact that Corsi may not exactly be a reliable stat. It's one that I've stopped looking at long ago, and I believe someone posted an article a month ago that indicated that GMs don't take it into account. There's a reason that everyone in the hockey world is predicting that Suter will pull down a bigger contract than Carle; it's because Suter is much better than Carle. Dustin Leed isn't exactly a renowned hockey mind, either.
Again the factual data says that Carle put up better numbers without Pronger then with him. One of the articles points out with facts how Carle put up some elite numbers, playing large amounts of time without Pronger. Suter is going to pull down a bigger contract then Carle is. Because he is a better player then Carle. But he is not much better. Both authors offer credible facts that back that up. You can make frivolous claims that Leed isn't exactly a renowned Hockey mind. But he's brough far more to the table then you have to make his point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
The 3rd article is the only one that can be considered credible, and all it really says is "hey, Carle isn't terrible like some people say." That's unimpressive and doesn't do lots to prove your point; since you seem to argue that Carle has no flaws (since you debate anybody who suggests any part of his game is flawed), you're going to be hard pressed to find a believable, reliable article that proves you right. "He isn't terrrible" =/= "He is incredible."
I have never once stated or argued that Carle has no flaws. That is an incorrect statement by you. And here is what the article really says, that you must have missed. The author talks about how Carle is perceived around the NHL. As does the other articles mention the same thing.

"In Philadelphia, Carle’s value often goes unrecognized. Some Flyers fans may see him as overrated, someone who commits turnovers and accomplishes little when he’s not paired with Chris Pronger.

The fact is that is not how Carle is viewed around the NHL, where opposing general managers see him as an under-appreciated, cerebral skater who fluidly transitions from zone-to-zone with little effort. While not overly physical, Carle does not shy away from contact and he is durable. He’s missed just 2 games over the last 3 seasons.

Most noticeably, Carle is consistent nightly, strong positionally and steady with the puck on the power play."


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
This is Carle: He is average defensively on a good day; he can't be trusted to shut down top lines, but handles the rest reliably which is why he sees such minutes. He racks up assists by handing the puck to skilled forwards, but there are limits to his offensive ability. His lack of a strong shot that can have any sort of impact is an issue; the Flyers were sorely lacking a good point shot through the playoffs. He often looks lost on the point during PPs, and tying Coburn for goals in the regular season is less than impressive.
None of what you say here can be backed up with facts. Read the bias here. Are the other defenseman on the team handling the puck to the same forwards? Or are they playing with a different team of forwards? How come the other defenseman aren't racking up assists? Your right, a weakness of Carle is that he doesn't shoot the puck particularly well. And he's not a great goal scorer from the back end. That is the biggest area where Suter is better then Carle. But you know how many PP goals Suter has in the last two Seasons? He has 4. Guess how many Carle has? And you incorrect that Carle looks lost on the PP. The 3rd article states how he is looked at in that area around the League. And if you want, we can break down the statistical data of Carle on the PP compared to other defenseman around the League. ready when you are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
The question is...do we REALLY want to tie 5ish million dollars to Carle, a guy who can't be a #1? Or do we want to let him walk, pay Suter, and move Timonen to a lower pairing? Timonen can do Carle's job better than Carle. Suter can possibly take over the top role. I'd rather use that money to fill the top role and move Timonen down to Carle's slot, than see if Timonen can spend another season as a #1 so Carle can make more money.
Here's another fallacy that I read often. #1 defenseman make far more then 5M in Salary a year. So he wouldn't be paid anywhere near like a #1. Timonen has one year left. You have to question if Suter is worth what it would take to sign him. I would say no. He would be an upgrade over Carle. But how much of an upgrade. There are only a few areas where Suter is superior to Carle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
You also shouldn't buy too much into what Holmgren is saying. He said the same sort of things about Leino last year, and he isn't a Flyer anymore. GMs say lots of things. Also, just because an article says something doesn't make it irrefutable, undoubtable truth. Articles also say lots of things, lots of them end up not being right.
No what he was saying about Leino and Carle is different. Holmgren flat out basically said that the only reason Carle hasn't been signed yet is due to tagging issues. And that he doesn't see a problem getting it done. And Holmgren has obviously talked to the agent. It's not 100% a done deal, but when a GM says things like he has about Carle, it's almost a certainty.

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