View Single Post
Old
05-30-2012, 06:45 PM
  #246
Jame
Dream '16
 
Jame's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Florida
Country: Pitcairn Islands
Posts: 36,254
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
You can easily argue he wasn't our best defenseman last year, as I have throughout this thread. You guys just seem to ignore that there is a lot more to the debate than what Jame has presented, and you take it all as gospel despite the fact that these arguments are extremely flawed.
its really not easy since you havent made any counter arguments backed up by anything. as far as i can tell your "argument" is that: (all of your posts are quoted below)

1. the offensive defensemen role with high offensive zone starts, is harder and more important then the shut down defensive role. because you state that even though "Sekera was better at his role, Myers/Ehrhoff were the better defensemen last year" you clearly miss the point that Myers was DEMOTED and Sekera took his shutdown role and was BETTER at it this past season.

2. you have a weird opinion that playing more minutes means you are better. Which means you dont understand lindy ruffs systems OR you think Jaro Spacek was a better defensemen then Toni Lydman too.

3. You think that Myers demotion was a promotion... that is really really laughable. but hey, you're bound to have laughable opinions when you have to bend reality to fit your opinion

4. You make multiple straw man arguments

5. you continue to miss the thread topic (performance last year)

6. You weight roles in the weirdest way, giving more value to offense then defense when talking about defensemen. Interesting point, the previous season, when Sekera WASN'T in the shutdown role, he had the same number of ES points as Myers (23)

7. makes no sense at all

8. sure, you've stated it a lot... and backed it up with nothing.

9. i suggest you provide the merits, if you intend to actually support your "eyeball" test opinion...


1
Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Sekera was the best at playing his role. When he had to step up and play the role that Myers and Ehrhoff were asked to play on a nightly basis, he was terrible.
2
Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
I'll tell you what he's not: a minute eating top pairing defenseman.

The best defensemen are the ones who play the most. They play the most because they are better than the guys who play less. This is common sense.

I know another way you can tell who the best defensemen are: if they are out ofthe line up the team is much worse. When Ehrhoff and Myers are out, this is a bad team. When Sekera is out, they carry on like normal. Pretty telling.

Sekera is a good mid-pair defenseman that can play against other team top players. Who's really the one with the agenda, the guy who is trying to put him on a pedastle as our best defenseman, or me for saying he's a solid mid-pair guy, nothing more or less?
3
Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Maybe it's not Myers that is being sheltered, it's Ruff wanting him to play with his most productive forwards, thus getting matched up against other teams checking lines and Sekera-esque shut down pairings. When you are a team that struggles to score, you are going to want your top defensemen playing with your best forwards more than normal. I'm willing to bet that Sekera was on the ice an awful lot with the Gaustad-Kaleta-Gerbe/similar role line, while Myers and Ehrhoff were probably playing a lot with Roy, Vanek, Pominville. Based on his PK time, it pretty obvious they were not intentionally sheltering Myers.
4
Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
This is a product of those forwards getting the most ice time. Did Sekera play significantly more than Myers with the Goose line? If he was playing against other top lines then I would guess that would be a yes.

But again, if Sekera was so good and so valuable to this team, why do they falter without Myers and Ehrhoff but look fine without Sekera?
4
Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
If Sekera WAS our best defenseman last season, the team would have suffered more when he was out than when Myers or Ehrhoff were out. No matter how you want to spin it, Myers and Ehrhoff are/were better and more valuable. Sekera played very well, but if he really played like our best defenseman, he would have been more important. Myers and Ehrhoff have more impact, therefore were better. It's not as complicated as you guys are trying to make it.
5.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
@punkr0x

Just wanted to point out that you said Sekera is clearly ahead of Myers. What does that mean? On the depth chart? In terms of talent? In terms of impact on the team? And I mean last year, because I don't see him being ahead of Myers in any of these.
6
Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
100% correct. This entire thread is skewed by the different roles they play and the failure to take that into account. Myers and Ehrhoff are asked to jump into the play while Sekera did it far less. Of course their d stats are going to suffer. If Sekera were to play a similar role his stats wouldn't be as good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
I couldn't possibly. But would you really argue he joined the rush even remotely as often as the other two? Yes, he did on occassion. But Ehrhoff and Myers did it regularly.
7
Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Which role is most difficult is obviously dependent on the player. Which role does RR think is easier?


8
Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
air enough, but your stats still don't represent what we are talking about, and I doubt the stat exists. If you can tell me that Sekera was beating opposition forwards up the ice to create as many odd man rushes as Myers and Ehrhoff, then good for you. I don't think he was remotely close in this aspect, and I think that it effects these numbers which don't take the risks into account

I have stated a couple of times in this thread that Myers and Ehrhoff were better because they had more impact on the team
; the teams entire style changed without them, whereas without Sekera there was very little change. Do you at least agree with that?
9
Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Agreed. That's why I said they both should be considered as part of broader conversation. Jame did a good job presenting Sekera's merits, but the merits of the other players have been mostly ignored in this thread.

Jame is offline   Reply With Quote