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06-16-2012, 04:10 PM
  #153
J17 Vs Proclamation
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markstrom Rules View Post
I never implied that Yakupov wasn't a good playmaker, but RNH is an amazing playmaker. It's true that right now, yakupov is better than RNH was last season. But we've seen what RNH can do in the NHL now. So there's no point in basing a comparison off of last season. Simply put, if Yakupov turns out better, then he'll be one of the top handful of forwards in the league. If you believe that, fine, I'm not ready to go there yet. I think conservatively saying RNH projects to be better in the long run is perfectly reasonable right now. Saying Yakupov will be better is the bold statement.
I wouldn't say it was bold. It's entirely plausible. Both will be excellent players, and i think no one would be suprised if Yakupov turned out to be better, or the reverse. I absolutely expect Yakupov to become one of the best Forwards in the world.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Markstrom Rules View Post
wasn't making any definitive assertions, merely speculating what could be the cause of his fall in the rankings. The scouts are dropping him down lists for a reason. And we all know it's because of his perceived character flaws. Maybe his case is similar to Daigle's and we don't know it yet. Maybe it isn't. But you can't definitively rule it out.
Character flaws is not the correct term. On ice work ethic is a better description. I think he falls at the draft (Him and Dumba are the 2 i expect to fall), but i don't believe that him falling is correct. I expect it to happen.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Markstrom Rules View Post
Having the necessary drive doesn't mean you have to play like Callahan, but it does mean you should display consistency more often than Grigs has shown in N.A. and for a 6'3" guy he should throw his body around a little more. I'm not saying having a little ice water in the veins is a bad thing, but a mummified corpse in frozen tundra is another. I don't blame the scouts one bit for their perception of him. If they just pretended like everything was hunky-dory and glossed over these concerns, they wouldn't be doing their job. Lottery picks can make or break a rebuild, this is pretty important stuff to consider.
Consistency? You mean the consistency he couldn't show due to an ankle injury or mono. Pre World Junior, he was consisently excellent. Grigorenko plays a very celebral game. He won't appear to be energetic all the time. There are legitimate excuses for the concerns that exist, and given the skill-set is one of the best available, i think it's a mistake to pass on such a talent.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Markstrom Rules View Post
I didn't say that. I said if he doesn't up his game in the departments that are lacking right now, I don't think he'll become a star. No one can reach the heights of the game on talent alone. Think of every big star that has ever played, they all had an unrelenting passion for the game and displayed intensity and strong work ethic. I don't care how much talent you have, if you don't want it bad enough you won't dominate on the ice. Frolik had a ton of talent too, how's he doing right now? I could name a ton of examples, some I've named already. How would Grigs be any different?
I can think of many stars who on the ice don't play a particularly energetic game. Of course dedication and hard work is required, and Grigorenko will certainly need to train hard and take it seriously.

Frolik isn't close to being the type of talent Grigorenko is. He lacks finishing ability to be an NHL offensive player. He's also soft, which is a problem the smaller you are. Grigorenko isn't particularly physical, but the reach and the size mean he has an inherent advantage that many other players do not have.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Markstrom Rules View Post
That's nonsense. Have you seen Philly's lineup lately? Couturier would be a top 6 center on our team without a doubt. He was an 18 year old rookie who scored 27 pts. playing with 4th liners. how wouldn't he have cracked at least 40 pts. if playing with top 6 wingers? Your whole argument on this point is extremely weak. Pair Weiss with Rinaldo, Shelley, etc. and idk if he'd even score 27 pts. Certainly he wouldn't fare much better if so.
He scored 27 points. The way people discuss his season, you'd have thought he had produced alot more.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Markstrom Rules View Post
Larsson? Please. He was healthy scratched in some games and in the playoffs he was scratched for most of it in favor of Peter "studhorse" Harrold. He clearly did not transition to the NHL as fast as a lot of people thought he was going to. There is no certainty wrt Huberdeau vs. Couturier. You seem to have a big bias against Couturier. Bartschi over Couturier? Erm, no. Strome and Zibanejad have done nothing yet to show that they should be considered better than Couturier. They are both solid prospects, and I do like Zibby a lot, but yeah, that's how it works. When you have a great rookie NHL season then usually you should look more favorable long term than anyone still in junior no matter pretty much what they do there.
You're speaking in absolutes. It isn't wise. Larsson is going to be an absolute workhorse, but began to struggle towards the end of the year. I'd personally take Larsson over Couturier without thinking too hard for the next 15 years. Your arguments for Couturier here are nonsensical. Not once have you discussed any of the players in-depth. I'd take the opinion more seriously, but instead you accuse someone of a bias (If a bias is simply an opinion of somebody being overstated in their ability, sure) and say various players cannot possibly be better than Couturier. I like Bartschi's offensive game alot, and think he'll be a star. He's a better offensive zone player than Couturier. Zibanejad i am more lukewarm on, but we shall see how he translates next year.






Quote:
Originally Posted by Markstrom Rules View Post
There's more to hockey than just goals and assists. 'Pure skill' is just one facet of the game. I can see now why you disfavor Couturier so much. You can't say you think player A projects to be better long term than player B because player A has more pure skill, and ignore everything else. Most players only have the puck for a couple minutes or less in total of the game. What you do for the rest of it is very important too. Zibby and Couturier should certainly be perceived to be just as good technically as Forsberg and Teravainen right now, and even if the scales tip slightly one way or the other, it's a very minute difference.
If hockey sense, puck skills, playming etc are "pure skills", and are not important, then perhaps i am in the wrong game ...

This particular argument isn't going anywhere. I prefer some players technical abilities and overall offensive game and how it will translate to the NHL over Couturier. No amount of pedantic cycling around an oval is going to change my opinion.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Markstrom Rules View Post
Yeah, that's kind of the point though. We've got a taste of the 2011 class now. So there's no use in pretending we don't and going back to last year. The 2012 crop of top end forwards has shown me nothing to suggest that they are all superstar talent or something and are good enough to be considered better than the likely Calder winner, the likely Calder runner-up, and a number of other very promising players. If the 2012 class had 5 forwards like Yakupov, then I'd be singing a different tune, but it doesn't. Forsberg, Teravainen, and Grigs hardly blow me away.
That is because you either haven't really seen them (European based) or because they haven't played in the NHL yet. Thus it is somewhat fallicious. Citing a Calder winner etc ... the players listed haven't had the opportunity to compete for such an accolade. Ironically, a year ago, one could simply implement the above paragraph and say 2011 cannot possibly be as strong as 2010. The above is basically anti-scouting/anti-thinking.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Markstrom Rules View Post
Ugh. I never preseumed to guess who takes who. I listed a general order, which is basically the same as creating tiers. This is a very weak straw man argument you started with me in the first place.
I actually wasn't saying you were, rather, that i see it commonly done by fans on this board.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Markstrom Rules View Post
Yeah, because we had 3 more prospects than we have now. But as years pass by, you evaluate and see who is progressing worthy enough of keeping and who you should let go. If you are fine with having 3, maybe 2 goaltending prospects heading into next season, that's fine, but I think you might be the only Panthers fan.
There is a difference between saying i don't believe it's tactically astute to use a 1st round pick on a Goaltender, and saying we shouldn't draft Goaltenders. I am fine with us taking a Goalie or two at the draft.

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