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11-28-2003, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by shanwon
Now you're stressing defensive ability...when your argument was Gonchar wasn't even in the top 20 NHL defensemen.
I am stressing defence because that's what defenceman do. Even offensive defenceman have to play defence, period. And if you read any of my posts in this thread, I've said many times that Gonchar is top 20 material.

Originally Posted by shanwon
No arguing that Gonchar isn't in the top 20 defensively. If you had said that from the beginning, you would still have some credibility.
My credibility is well intact, thank you. To use exact quotes, what I said the first time you questioned me, "I could name atleast 20 defenceman in the league that I consider equal or better than Gonchar". If you interpret that correctly, I suggest that there are only maybe 20-25 defenceman that I could name that are equal or better. Note, equal or better. It iisn't a quantum leap to assume that I consider him in high regard. NOT ONLY THAT, but in my very next post I clearly state, "txpd, I am not trying to discount Gonchar's abilities. Don't get me wrong. I consider top 20 to be an elite class, and Gonchar is definately there." So you are absolutely wrong.

Originally Posted by shanwon
Now you're saying you wouldn't have a problem playing any of those players in Gonchar's place in a lineup. Neither would I, but Gonchar is better than most of those on the list, and again, not the same argument you started with.
Sure it is, are you kidding me? EQUAL OR BETTER, how many times do I need to say that before it will register? You are just being foolish now. You admit that you'd play these guys in his place, but then adamantly claim that Gonchar is oh so superior to most of them. Whatever buddy.

Originally Posted by shanwon
Please find somewhere where I said Gonchar is the...what did you call it...."most complete and highly skilled defenceman". That putting words in peoples wait...that's just a flat out lie. Wait...Andora said Gonchar wasn't in the top 20 NHL defensemen? Once again...not true Mr.'s what Andora said..."just to name a few, foote/blake/zubov/hatcher/hamrlik/redden/macinnis/niedermayer/jovanovski/ohlund ...and gonchar belongs right in there with them". That doesn't sound like much of a dig there against Gonchar.'s now 3-1 for me. The judges penalized you a pt. for posting lies.
Not only do you not even understand what I say, you barely even understand what you yourself say. Very difficult to have a discussion with a buffoon. Here's what your friend said:

1. Gonchar was voted by the players 2nd team allstar defenseman last year. Lidstrom/MacInnis-Hatcher/Gonchar. That would be in the top 4.
if you think Gonchar is merely a top 20 NHL defenseman, then that is not even allstar game allstar caliber. eh?

2. To be the equal of Gonchar based on his defense, Lydman would have to be a dominant defensive zone player that his above average on the offensive side of the game. Gonchar is above average on defense and is a dominant force on the offensive side. I am delusional? Gonchar leads NHL defensemen in points by a bucket load after 20 games. At this rate he will lead NHL defensemen by 20 pts by season's end. Last year he was one point behind Al MacInnis and lead defensemen in goals. He leads defensemen in goals over the last 5 years. He is dominant. Do you visualize Lydman as a dominant player defensively in the next couple of years? If your answer is yes and you are correct in your evaluation, then maybe 30% of players like him ever realize their full potential. IF he achieves Wade Redden stature he will be very successful.
So sorry for mistaking you guys for making a case for Gonchar being an complete player. One can only assume terms like "dominant defensive zone player" when describing what it would take for Lydman to match Gonchar as a reference to Gonchar's abilities -- so Lydman needs to be better than Gonchar to equal him? Very confusing.

I'll go ahead and predict that you (or your friend) will argue that he said "above average defensively" when describing Gonchar. But "above average" is very generic, the best defensive defenceman in the league could be rreferred to as above average defensively and have it still be truee.

EDIT: Mixing you guys up. Making corrections.

Last edited by kolanos: 11-28-2003 at 06:38 PM.
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