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06-27-2012, 11:23 PM
Tender Rip
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
You simply keep reading things the way you want, which is a lack of reading comprehension I suppose.
Hmm... some times when meeting people more obstinate than oneself, a rare thing in my case, one must be patient.

1: I completely understand and realize that your overarching point of view before and after the draft is that - Great, Shero builds a tremendous pipeline. That has major value for a lot of reasons. . In a vacuum, I can only agree with this.
2: One of those reasons you have pointed to many, many times is that these highly valued D-men prospects can be moved for other assets if needed. Like many others here, you have been pointing to our recent experiences moving puck moving D-men as primary examples. Not just in this thread.
3: I point out that those we moved for great returns were not prospects and had already made it to the NHL, playing big minutes, providing lots of offense and succeeded on a big team.
Nevermind that I find guys like Despres, Morrow etc. to look like ultimately better NHL talents than Whitney and Goligoski, down the line, I don't think this means more or comparable trade value before they show that they can succeed in the NHL. I have therefore asked you to give some examples to this presumed trade value of prospect D-men to justify frequently telling me that my reservations are wrong.

4: You tell me I can't read/read only what I want, and insist that your point was simply:

Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I've talked about the plethora of options Shero has. I've mentioned blueliners like they have can fetch a nice return without ever playing in the NHL, then listed a litany of other ways they have value.
....and your list of unproven blueliners was one player, a player I had already mentioned myself, who got St.Louis an asset you yourself said fell solely due to the Russian factor.
I think that is a very weak reply on your part, and I think it very dodgy to point to a draft pick yet to be realized as an example of great trade value.
Then you mentioned Voinov because his presence liberated LA to trade Johnson, but that of course says nothing about Voinov's TRADE VALUE prior to proving himself, which is what I have very explicitly been inquiring about. It said a lot about trade value of NHL proven young puck movers though, as Jack Johnson was the principal piece in getting Carter despite having been atrocious defensively pretty much throughout his NHL career.

Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Not once did I say I believe any of them will be moved because of roster problems. You brought that into the equation.
Non sequitor much? When did I talk of roster problems at all? There is no relation between what you quoted from me and any of the above.

Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
That is why I continue to mention that no one knows what this roster will look like in three years.
A point on which I have agreed entirely in principle, yet added that with the depth of blueliners already on the team, it is obvious that our recent and very capable D-prospects will be kept down longer than if they'd been forwards where our pipeline and internal competition is no way near as hard.
I am sure we could choose to agree with each other on both these points in isolation. If the intention was to understand and react to each others comments at least.

Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Well I guess this is the part where I have to call you a liar.

Jags can easily back me up about how I felt about Whitney vs Martin as we both agreed two Summers ago Whitney is the guy we both wanted badly.
He could back you on wanting Whitney, which is something we could go back and find was vocally shared by me, Champagne Wishes and no doubt many, many others.

Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
If you can find a quote where I said their D was top three back then, good luck. If you can't (and you won't) well we both know what that makes you.
If you insist.
July 1st 2010:

Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
"I was agt. Shero spending all of the cap dollars on defense and finding balance... but I never even considered he would land both Michalek and Martin... I didn't think it was even possible...

Apparently Martin took less money to sign with the Pens than NJ. He was upset with the NJ doctors... (what my buddy told me he heard on the radio?)

Shero just made their blueline one of the top 3 in the league today and they are all locked up for the next few seasons as well.
Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Try to keep your own argument straight, playboy.

Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
You just made a fool of yourself... Do research if you are clueless.
...and so we come to one of those where one can just say mea culpa. I didn't remember it as St.Louis trading to take him on draft day. So, my mistake.

I will repeat though, that the value for Rundblad here as a trade asset, I find it unreasonable to see this as viable example.
The value depended on what St.Louis did with that pick and how that prospect would later develop, and thus isn't a fair indication on Rundblad's market value. Rundblad was a 17th overall pick who had developed well since his draft and was traded for a 16th overall pick a year later.
St.Louis made out like bandits because they picked right/gambled on the high profile Russian who is now coming over. A draft day steal. Good for them, great, would have been better still if we had traded up from Beau Bennett at 20.

When we traded for Hossa, the 1st rounder (29) involved became Daultan Leveille who is most likely a complete bust - ie. that 1st round pick was as worthless as Angelo Esposito, but only because of who was picked. Seeing that Markström went 31st and Voinov 32nd for instance. So many say that Hossa came really cheap, and in the greater scheme of things he sure did. But the value of a pick is entirely relative to where that pick ends up, and who you end up choosing.
Kessel ultimately yielded Boston Seguin, Jared Knight and Dougie Hamilton. Who really thinks that reflects Kessel's asset value?

Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Again, you are pulling things out of your ass. Just stop.

Go back and read the thread. People wanted Letestu traded or given away. Ppl were hailing Shero as a hero for getting a 4th.
Many of us were not. Ultimately this was a consequence of having collected numerous assets competing for similar positions and being forced by sheer numbers to deal an asset while his value was low. Considering Letestu's 2010/2011 season and capacity to deliver secondary scoring at a bargain cap-hit, a 4th rounder was not a particularly great return, but it obviously beats getting nothing at all for Nick Johnson.
Those who thought Shero for getting a 4th was genius are the same people who are OK with ditching most any player going through a difficult patch, never mind their asset value.

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