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07-12-2012, 05:08 PM
  #126
trentmccleary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TeamRenzo View Post
I feel that we over value our prospects on this board. If you are trading Zib and expecting Morrow or better there will most likely have to be other players included in the trade.

Zib has been labeled a "soft" player...that aint helping his trade value.
You're supposed to value top-10 picks very highly.

Who the hell called him soft?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckleys View Post
Toronto did not have Spezza, and Kaberle may have been good, but he's not Karlsson. The Toronto Maple Leafs did not have two D with nearly the amount of potential of Erik Karlsson or Jared Cowen.
CJam is arguing how "proven" our prospects are to accelerate the rebuild. Cowen hasn't proven much yet; you guys are still projecting a lot. Little of what guys like Turris, Greening and Cowen did this season suggest they're going to be major pieces of getting this team to the playoffs right now as the greybeards retire. Also, Leaf fans truly were quite happy with the looks of that defense I posted above. Even more when franchise D-man Schenn was drafted in June of '08.

Kaberle was an elite offensive D-man who just spent 3 straight seasons in the top-10 in D-scoring. The comparisons aren't the greatest, but you do need to account for him honestly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckleys View Post
Anderson and Toskala are not comparable. Anderson has come here an already proven he can handle the spotlight. A year ago you could have made this argument, but not right now.
Every Tom, Dick, and Harry had a .920 SV% this season. Anderson's '11-12 and Toskala's '07-08 were quite comparable across the board. The biggest visual difference in their stats was SV%, but that was due in part to a seasonal fluctuation (Anderson was 25th and Toskala was 31st).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckleys View Post
We held on to our draft picks and had much superior scouting, they rushed prospects like Schenn, we're letting a great deal of young talent battle out and develop at their own pace. They did not have prospects that matched Silfverberg, Stone, Zibanejad, Lehner (don't say Pogge was as touted. Him and Glass had a lot of hype but it was pretty clear they both had holes in their games, his dad was also not a goaltending coach) etc. because they dealt away many top 60 picks and do not have great scouting. Our young talent has played a handful of games and looked good, and played in other leagues and looked great.

I don't understand how the situations compare. Now all of these guys are not going to work out, I don't think that. And we were going to see the growing pains of a rebuild. But there is a good reason we are well ahead of the likes of Toronto and Calgary in a rebuild in a significantly shorter time frame.
CJam is advocating that we deal our best prospects for quick fixes the way that Toronto did.
Every team has prospects that they are enamoured with; our superiority lies with a few guys at the top... not every single prospect we have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJam613 View Post
Seriously comparing Kaberle to Karlsson? At no point was Kaberle ever having the same kind of impact on his team that Karlsson has on this one. It's not close. He was a good offensive defenseman, but seriously.
He was an elite offensive D-man at that time in his career who had just spent 3+ seasons as a dominant PPQB. We have nothing else (beyond Spezza or Karlsson) now that had the impact he did back then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJam613 View Post
Anderson has had great numbers in the NHL pretty much every year outside of a small stint in Colorado the year before last where there were a lot of off-ice issues, and he's a proven playoff performer (call it a small sample size if you want.) As soon as he came to Ottawa he regained his form. Toskala was bad in all of his large sample sizes. I don't see how it's comparable at all. I don't care about expectations -- I can see this team for what it was last year versus what Toronto had to build on. They're not comparable.
Read above about how similar their two seasons were. Toskala had the same history as a back-up that Anderson did and was a key in helping San Jose advance in the postseason. The only thing that Anderson had on him was the one successful season as a starter in Colorado.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJam613 View Post
I don't see how they were more proven than a career PPG player (Spezza), a player that has put up multiple 50+ point seasons (Michalek) and a Norris winner (Karlsson.) You can call Michalek and Spezza veterans but they are still a couple years or more away from 30 and Karlsson is, well, Karlsson. Cowen and Methot are also both pretty proven while Silfverberg and Turris come with pedigrees that none of the Leafs' players had, and Turris gave a huge glimpse this year as to why so much was expected of him.
Antropov was their Michalek at that point, even including the injuries. His 2003 season was a dominant physical performance that he never really built upon, but it was more impressive than the 45 points makes it look.

How are the others proven? ... They had numerous players 25 and under who had put up 40+ point seasons. We don't; we don't have any proven secondary scoring whatsever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJam613 View Post
Just like Ottawa was nowhere near ready to make the playoffs last year, too? Give me a break. Ottawa was underestimated and thought to be further back in their rebuild because of one really bad year that just had the perfect storm of events to make them look a lot worse than they were. Combine that with young players stepping up, acquiring a reliable goalie, and veterans bouncing back from pretty much career worst years and you get a team that makes the playoffs on the strength of it's youth combined with experience.

We already have a ton of prospects coming up and we can afford to move a few. Giving one or two prospects away is not selling our future when we're as stocked up as we are.
You can keep trumpeting that playoff line, but it was on the backs of 35 year olds... not Cowen, Turris, Greening, Silfverberg, Stone or whoever you're pimping right now.

Karlsson was the only "strong youth" who carried us to the playoffs, the others were depth players.

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