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08-07-2012, 01:59 PM
  #662
Lafleurs Guy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
Suggesting that Gionta could be traded for a #1 is either dishonest or harebrained. If you must concoct a scenario, at least make it plausible.
If Rivet can be dealt for a 1st, Gionta certainly can. And if he's not good enough to fetch a first, why is everyone so against trading him? If he's not really that good, then why on the one hand are folks pointing to him as a huge reason to be optimistic and on the other saying he's not even worth a 1st? Which is it?

He doesn't have much left on his deal, he's a decent scorer with character and can provide depth for a contender. That can net you a late 1st. No reason no to try to do this. Let's not make the same mistake that we made with Cammy last year please...
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebinne4pres View Post
Oh boy.....i don't know where to start!!

1- Tanking.....hummmm....you actually start thinking about tanking after 30-40 matchs in a season: NOT BEFORE TRAINING CAMP. Sorry, but that's against the spirit of sports....not just hockey....all sports.
'Tanking' is a misnomer. It doesn't really exist. Rebuilding though? Sure why not? We know we're not contenders but we've got some good youth to build with. Nothing wrong with adding to it. If we actually get into the playoffs? Great. At least we got some prospects to build with along the way and we can enjoy the playoffs until we're eliminated in the 1st or 2nd round.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thebinne4pres View Post
2- Surprises always happens....Mayby Galchenyuk will take the 1st line center spot right away, Mayby Eller will explode and grab a top 6 spot, Mayby Beaulieu will earn his place, Mayby a big trade is coming....who knows?? Last summer, nobody and i mean NOBODY expected Pacioretty - DD - Cole would be our first line....never underestimated the element of surprise.
Suprises do happen absolutely. Some of them are negative suprises...

And you can't plan for these so they shouldn't be part of your strategy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebinne4pres View Post
3- Is the Habs are that bad???

On paper....Bourque, Gionta, Cole and Pacioretty are all usually +25 goals scorers.
Plekanec use to be a 20-30 goals player
Desharnais and Eller can become 20 goals players

That's 7 players able to put 20 goals and more....7 forwards out of twelve!!!

At defense, we got Markov, used to be 60-65 points player..but let's say 50 (injury)
Kaberle also used to out up around 50 points a season
Subban can also put a 40-50 points season.
Are they that bad? Maybe not.

But they're not that good. That's why we should rebuild.


Quote:
Originally Posted by thebinne4pres View Post
3 defensemen out of 6 able to put 50 points.

One of the best young goaler with Price
One of the best open ice hitter with Emelin
One of the best useful tough guy with Prust
One of the best D to block shoot and shutdown guy with Gorges

And a ******** of tough customers whit Ryan-Moen-Bouillon ansd White

And much much much more better depth in case of injury with Beaulieu, Holland, Tinordi, Gallagher, Goeffrion, Dumont, St-Denis, Desjardins.

There's a lot of good things to get ride off to become a "tanking team"

And the things you forget.....if we tank, not sure any UFA will want to sign here!!
There's nothing in our lineup that contenders don't have except they have MORE talent...
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebinne4pres View Post
4- Gettin some draft pick????

How many do you need?, I'm not against it, but we already got 4 picks in the 2 first round.
We already have Eller, Desharnais, Pacioretty, Leblanc, Subban, Price, Beaulieu, Tinordi, Glachenyuk, Collberg, Gallagher, Ellis just to name those players as young future good players.

Lots of good young players
Lots of good draft pick

And already too much player already with the team!!!!!
Sure, why not? Up until Price (who was a one time lottery) we hadn't had a top five pick in 20 years. We actually made one rebuilding move for a 1st rounder and he's turned into our best forward...

Why not make more of those kinds of moves right now?

Quote:
Originally Posted by thebinne4pres View Post
Tanking???
Well mayby, but we'll see after 40 games......For now, there's too much good things to stop trying to win!!
Depends on what your goals are. If it's about trying to get into 8th place at all costs... sure, we could do it.

But if it's about trying to build a cup winner, then that's a different story.

And forget 'tanking'... not going to happen. Nobody is going to try to lose. It's silly that the debate keeps getting framed this way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrimsonSkorpion View Post
With that kind of logic, the Edmonton Oilers are screwed. Guys like Hall, Eberle, Nugent-Hopkins and now Yakupov are all there. So they will not grow with the first few seasons of their young careers being a flush? Not that I am suggesting you're absolutely wrong, but some players do grow through awful seasons. It builds character and tells a lot about yourself if you're able to handle it and keep going.
You are dead on correct. Yzerman, Lemieux, Sakic... tons of guys grew up in losing organizations. Didn't hurt them one bit. Start with the best talent you can and build from there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrimsonSkorpion View Post
As for this year though, I'd rather wait until game 25-30 before talking seriously about it. To discuss a tank before pre-season has even started is way too early. However by game 30, if the Habs are dead last in the East, I would think it's time to start stock-piling picks, trading contracts out and building a more solid foundation for the future.
Again, forget 'tanking.' Nothing wrong with planning a rebuild though. And if we can get good returns for players now, no reason not to do it. It might be a little harder now though because there are unsigned free agents out there that teams are trying to nail down. Once that's done though, no problem in seeing what we can do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy View Post
Toronto improved because of JVR? Scoring wasn't a problem for Toronto last year, they were 10th in goals for. Keeping the puck out of their net was. They traded one of their better d-men (who was scapegoated) for something they didn't need and still haven't solved their defensive and goaltending issues.
Off topic, but I like the JVR trade for TO. I'll have to keep the reasoning about Schenn to myself, but JVR should be good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy View Post
Also why should Colorado and Buffalo improve? Islanders youngsters might improve, but so might the habs'. Too many assumptions given in favor of other teams. Carolina's defense is still something left to be desired. Edmonton still has a lot of d issues as well.
Thing is though, we're sitting here worrying about Buffalo... We should be worrying about winning cups, not fighting for 8th place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
No one would ever have thought of that pearl of wisdom if you hadn't brought it up.

What you're implying is that Bergevin should trade enough veterans to fetch 2 or 3 additional second rounders. Could you please be specific?
Don't know if he can or not, but I'll be happy to tell you that any of Cole, Gionta, Markov, Pleks or other vets should be shopped. They don't all have to be dealt but some should. Cole esp would fetch some good interest out there. It's nice to have him to help with Max's development but if we can get a good prospect out of it, that's far more important in the long run. And Cole is coming off a career year, great time to sell high on him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
You know as well as I do that Bergevin wouldn't trade certain players he's counting on for the coming season. I don't think he'd move any veterans who are worth first or seconders until close to the deadline, and at that it would depend on where the Habs are in the standings. As you know, Bergevin's highest priority in this, his first, season is to make the playoffs. I don't think Geoff Molson would look kindly on two consecutive misses. Naturally, Bergevin would also keep the future in mind, but until he sees how the present personnel (plus any prospects he brings up) perform he won't go radical.
I don't think anyone knows what Bergevin's priorities are. He's brand new. Maybe he got the job by going to Molson and telling him that a rebuild was in order. Maybe that's why we haven't seen any FA signings... then again maybe he's going hard after Shane Doan. Who knows?

My HOPE is that he's willing to rebuild because he wants a cup but I'm not going to expect it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
There's more to it than drafting. The Devils wouldn't have reached the finals without Kovalchuk and the Bruins wouldn't have been able to win the Cup without a number of trades and FA signings. Obviously they didn't use a tanking strategy.
Of course there's more to it than drafting. But drafting helps, esp when you can't get top free agents to play for you and have some of the best scouting in the league.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
True, RNH and TH are better than the Habs' best prospects, and you didn't even include Nail. As Hab fans we have to face reality. However, the team with elite talent doesn't always win.
But the team with little talent never wins. And the team with the best talent frequently does... why wouldn't you want to build with the best talent?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
If I had to cite an appropriate case study it would be the 1971 playoffs, in which the underdog Habs defeated three teams with better records. The most shocking upset was their Bruins were really loaded and were headed by Phil Esposito and Bobby Orr.
Right, but that Boston team still won a cup in '72. You may not win it every year but sooner or later you probably will. The Ottawa Senators for example are the exception not the rule and they got screwed by the strike and new salary cap rules otherwise they'd probably have won a cup too...

You can build the best team you can and still not win. That's not a good argument for not trying to build the best team you can though... You'll never have guarantees, all you can do is build the best club you can and try to win. If you don't do this, you'll probably never win.

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