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08-22-2012, 04:45 PM
Join Date: Dec 2006
Originally Posted by
I am interested in seeing your calculations on your 2x number.
Just look at rentals and compare them to selling prices in the same buildings/neighborhoods. I mentioned earlier a friend who rents for $2500 while basically identical houses on her street have sold for $1+ million. Assuming a $900K mortgage, that's about $4500 a month plus $350 a month in property tax and another couple hundred on insurance. So that's easily 2X.
More generally, the average price to yearly rent ratio in various Vancouver neighborhoods currently ranges from about 25:1 to 60:1 depending on the location (so 25-60 years of rent to match the purchase price of the residence). Here's an article from the Province discussing this:
I think their numbers overstate the case a bit, as they have it at about 35:1 to 70:1 depending on the area. Though I may be understating it as the IMF recently pegged Vancouver's overall price to rent ratio at 58:1.
Under current interest and property tax rates 15:1 is considered about equivalent in terms of monthly costs. A place that rents for $2K a month ($24K a year) would cost roughly the same month to month as a $360K place. At 25:1 (which is arguably the low point of any average location in metro Vancouver), a $2K a month place is going to cost about $3500 a month in mortgage, taxes, etc to own. So that's nearly 2X at the absolute low end. At 58:1 which is the IMF's number for the city overall, you're seeing a $2000 a month residence cost about $1.15 million to buy and $6500 a month to own. And those figures are under current record low interest rates. Under a more reasonable interest rate, then the spread becomes even greater.
And I'd love to see your reasoning for a crash "like we saw in the US" happening here. Not just headline reasoning to get attention, but real information.
It's happened before under fundamentals way less out of whack than we have right now. The question in my mind isn't why Vancouver would have a price crash, but why wouldn't it? Why is Vancouver different? We saw a 20% correction in 2008 before interest rates fell through the floor, so why is a slightly bigger drop out of the question? I doubt we'll see prices cut in half like some of the hardest hit US markets, but 30% from the peak is a perfectly reasonable scenario.
And really, even if you ignore pretty much every other factor, interest rates alone are going to see Canadian real estate taking a hit. Here's what $4K a month on a 25 year mortgage gets you under various interest rate scenarios:
So that's a 27% drop in buying power simply due to interest rates returning to their 2007 levels. Even if you accept that real estate isn't overvalued by a single cent right now, there's going to have to be a correction from the return to more normal interest rates given the levels of debt and low equity we're seeing right now.
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