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08-30-2012, 09:58 AM
  #174
seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
- I don't put much value in being a goon, I value them when they grow out of it and become enforcers.

- Thats because the enforcer/goon status wasn't as defined back then as it is today. Orlando had his fare share of heavyweight fights against guys like Reardon, Stewart, Egan and so on.

- Yes, thats why I said McSorley has longevity. Allthough QHSL wasn't a bad league at the time. Lots of players chose to play there instead of the NHL even Beliveau

- If you mean he led with experience then yes.

- See the Gaye Stewart incident. Yes, Orlando was an agitator.

- +/-? Really? McSorley went from leading the NHL in that regard to being -13. That stat isn't that relevant on an individual level.

- Orlando was thrown a couple of votes in '43.

- It just shows you how inconsistent contracts became when player salaries increased. It was also boosted by the Blues insanity of that time. Pretty weak argument by your standards.

- I would say Marty were about 10% better offensively.

- That he rarely was in a goal against. He usually was out there with Jack Stewart to build a physical wall when protecting leads. Just like Motter and Goodfellow were combined when trying to catch up to a lead.
I don't value "goons" either, we're just using different terms in different ways. If you're defining an enforcer as a useful player who also fights, and goon as a useless player who fights, McSorley was an enforcer, not a goon.

But how good was Orlando at fighting? Was he the best? 2nd best? one of the best? We know exactly how good McSorley was.

This isn't just a small longevity edge though. We're talking about a career 2-3X as long even if you give him WW2 credit (which, considering the circumstances, you really shouldn't)

Just looking at the 1949 QSHL, here are the ATD/MLD/AAA/AA caliber players: Herb Carnegie, Larry Zeidel, Leo Lamoreux. that is all. No, it's not a good league.

How is a "stick swinging incident" agitation?

You don't lead the NHL in +/- with smoke and mirrors.

I guess 2 votes then is as good as 3 votes in 1991.

the salary argument is not weak... teams talk with the amount of money they shell out. It also shows that was the amount of money needed to ensure he didn't choose a different team, so there was obviously great interest. Go through the salary lists year by year, it's not like you will find a lot of crappy players in the top-30 in salary. Making him the 16th-highest paid player in the NHL said A LOT.

The 10% figure was pulled out of thin air and has no basis. When one guy has at least six seasons better than the best the other guy had, then the difference is a lot more than 10%.

How do you know Orlando was rarely scored on?

Regardless of whatever skills he had, the guy demonstrated them for just four seasons.

------------------------

Going back to whether McSorley belongs in the MLD:

- Have most "goons who can play" been drafted by now? Yes they have.
- Have most defensemen with his reasonable offensive production been drafted by now? Yes they have.
- Was he just stapled to the bench and sent out to fight? No. Does his "ice time record" of 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 4th, 5th (and an average of 21.36 minutes) stand out as particularly bad among MLD draftees? No, it doesn't.

Here are the "best 8" for a few other players:

Mike Milbury - 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 4, 4, 4 (22.29)
John Van Boxmeer - 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 (22.25)
Dave Maloney - 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 4, 5 (21.93)
Bryan Watson - 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 4, 4, 5 (21.74)
Garth Butcher - 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 4, 4, 4 (21.64)
Don Sweeney - 2, 2, 2, 3, 4, 4, 4, 4 (21.58)
Brad Marsh - 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4 (21.48)
Marek Zidlicky - 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 4, 5 (21.23)
Bob Rouse - 1, 3, 3, 3, 3, 4, 5, 5 (21.11)
Brendan Witt - 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 4 (21.19)
Risto Siltanen - 1, 3, 3, 3, 3, 4, 5, 6 (21.09)
Dave Lewis - 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 4, 4 (20.98)
Sylvain Lefebvre - 1, 2, 3, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4 (20.81)
Jason Smith - 2, 3, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4 (20.64)
Tom Bladon - 1, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 5, 6 (20.53)
Joe Reekie - 3, 3, 4, 4, 4, 4, 5, 6 (20.36)
Marc Bergevin - 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4 (20.32)
Hal Gill - 2, 3, 4, 4, 4, 5, 5, 5 (20.18)
Lee Fogolin - 3, 3, 3, 4, 4, 4, 5, 5 (19.71)
Sheldon Souray - 1, 1, 2, 3, 4, 4, 7, 7 (19.00) (over 40 game seasons)


Last edited by seventieslord: 08-30-2012 at 01:04 PM.
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