Thread: Confirmed with Link: John Madden joins scouting staff
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09-07-2012, 10:00 AM
Miller Time
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
Thoughtful response? Again, I've seen nothing on your end that proves Madden will be excellent. Just a bunch of speculation and assumptions based on his playing ability. By your logic, there are a plethora of good scouts currently playing as there are a plethora of good hockey players. Doughty, Pietrangelo, Subban, Thornton, Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos, St.Louis, Weber, Suter, Chara, Lundqvist, Richards, Kopitar, Quick, Brown, Kovalchuk, Staal, Skinner Parise etc etc are all based on your logic equally qualified to be excellent scouts. Even guys who had a similar work ethic like Madden: Prust, Malholtra, Pahlsson, Bolland, Betts etc etc.

I find it hard to believe that all these players will be excellent scouts because they were all excellent players in some shape or form.

The thoughtful response is lacking on your end, since there isn't anything that tells me that Madden will be an EXCELLENT hire considering he has 0 years of ameture scouting experience. It may very well be that he ends up being excellent and I hope he does, but it's just something that we are hoping he will do, we really don't have zero idea whether he will and we can't base such assumptions on his playing career or else it also qualifies a plethora of other candidates as excellent scouts.

Trevor Timmins didn't have an outstanding hockey career and is an excellent scout as are other scouts who didn't have anything noteworthy in terms of hockey. Joe McDonnell of the Red Wings played 50 nhl games.

I love the intention and direction. We'll see what hapens.
Repeating the same argument over and over in longer sentences doesn't add anything... We get it, you don't understand that there is more to playing than just "playing", and since you don't know the future you'd rather not "assume" anything beyond your own biases... But you love the intention/direction, Got it the first time.

Since you clearly haven't taken the time to actually read (or maybe it's the comprehension thing?, do I really need to explain to do you the difference btw "excellent hiring" and "person x will be excellent"?), I've reported below my comments, highlighting the points you seem unwilling to address.

Also underlined the comments that directly contradict your interpretation of what I've said ( maybe it really is a comprehension thing???)

Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post

ultimately, the only real "judge" of a player's scouting ability will be measured by his success at finding obscure talent, but even then since he's just a scout and not director of scouting, we'll probably never really know how good he is/isn't.

that said, certain traits lend themselves very well to being both aware of and able to evaluate the incredibly valuable "intangible" aspects of young athletes.

a guy who made his career based on both his hockey i.q and his work ethic has shown exactly the kind of expertise that lends itself to an ideal scout.

he not only knows what it takes from a character/mental makeup pov to last a long time in the league, but as a guy who was a late bloomer (11th round OHL draft pick, undrafted in the NHL) and had to literally work his way into the NHL, he has experienced first hand what it's like to make the absolute most out of the "natural" talent (or lack thereof) one has as a junior... his resume gives him a degree of experience that very few scouts have even if they have years of experience watching.

huge difference btw a guy like this, and a more talented athlete wrapping up his nhl career and jumping into management expecting things to just smoothly roll on. If nothing else, Madden's resume speaks to his ability to learn on the job and work his way to effectiveness... that's a labour skill that any quality employer will value over "years of experience" every single time.

the bigger question or unknown is how devoted the individual in question will be to doing some of the "gruelling" (relatively speaking) and unglamorous work of a lowly (in the management totem pole) scout....
though Madden, with his reputation and contacts in the league, taking on a scouting position with the habs (vs landing in a higher up job with less travel needs/grunt work) certainly points to an individual who either A-really wants to be a scout or B-wants to get the know the business from the ground up.

in any case, while we "really don't know" how good Madden will be, as a blanket statement you can apply that to any hire, including people with previous experience/resumes.

With the information we do know, it is very reasonable to expect Madden will be at least decent in the role, and quite likely to be a great addition in that role.
Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
If you had experience with elite sport, perhaps you'd understand better...

Madden isn't scouting baseball, or stick trading, or cooking... He's evaluating hockey players. What do you think a defensive specialist does to excel in his role ? Skate fast? Back check hard? Sure, but first and foremost he's a student of the game, and specifically of individual players and what he can expect from them.

What do you think a scouting requires?

Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
Just lost my reply.... But briefly:

Pro athletes develop many highly transferable work skills, and not all athletes develop the same ones.

Teams recycle guys like Gauthier all the time, so don't assume that "teams" chase after the right people by default.

Very few people are amazing "right off the bat" in a new role regardless of profession, and besides did I even make that claim?

It's a good hire, an excellent hire, IMO, based on the info we have available and my own experience with very relevant subject matter.

Great for you if you want to wait and see how he does, nothing wrong with that... But that's a pretty useless point to argue about, none of us are fortune tellers, every opinion is subject to the "wait and see" counter point, which makes it redundant redundant.
If you so need to disagree, can't you offer at least some sort of thoughtful response?

Our schools really need to get back to the liberal arts focus, science and math are great for logical thinking, but if basic reading comprehension is left behind, logic falls flat on its face

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