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09-09-2012, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
You do understand that there is a difference between making assumptions about what a player may or may not accomplish in the future and making an assumption about where a player will be drafted in future drafts, right?

A handful of Selke votes through a whole career doesn't show very much without some anecdodat evidence to back it up.

Toughness appears to be on a similar level.

As for Pederson's play-offs, you are going a bit overboard, but you are correct in pointing out that he is likely a better play-off scorer than Haynes.

While I will agree that Pederson is better than Haynes, I think it's important to also point out that Pederson is by far his line's best player, while Haynes is probably his lines weakest.

Vanek is a much better scorer than Geoff Courtnall. Courtnall's best seasons are 15th and 17th in league goalscoring, and his next best season wasn't even close to a top-20. That means that Vanek has 4 seasons that are more impressive than anything Courtnall ever accomplished. Their goalscoring abilities are not even close.

Harris's best offensive season landed him 32nd in league scoring. He was never again in the top-40. Even if you're looking at offense only, Ward is the far superior player.

That completely ignores the fact that Ward's offensive abilities were probably the weakest part of his game.

Corson had a longer career, but at their best, Sandford was easily the better of the two. If you like longevity, Corson is your man. If you like peak, you go for Sandford.

If I was in your shoes, however, and my #1 goalie and #1 defenseman were essenstially one-year-wonders, I wouldn't really be pushing too much to convince people that longevity was important.

Donald Smith was a key player everywhere he went. Like your 1st line winger, Geoff Courtnall, players don't move around because they are not wanted - they move around because they are wanted. In the early eras especially, players moved all over the place to follow the money.

Just because he was known as a clean player doesn't mean he didn't defend himself when needed. Regardless of what you take from the quotes, you can't deny his offensive abilities. You're a big raw numbers guy, so here are Donald Smith's - 191 goals in 185 games.

Russ Courtnall could score.... just not well enough to ever crack the top-20 in the league.

He was a better playmaker than scorer, but Wiseman is a much better playmaker.
Soviets claimed they were a democracy also.

You focus only on scoring, ignoring the complete game that a good line requires. Vanek only brings scoring, Geoff Courtnall brings board work, toughness defense. Harris brings a complete game. Point is that a line has to be complete. No one criticizes the Cashman/ Esposito/Hodge line because Cashman did not rank highly in the league scoring. The Orfuns' first line is as complete as possible for this level.

Barry Pederson's defensive attributes. He was regularly assigned the number one center with the Canucks - Hawerchuk, Savard, Gretzky, Peter Stastny etc and post Kasper injury Bruins:

Dale Hawerchuk:

Trust you can support similar defensive claims about your players with specifics as opposed to generalities.

Donald Smith was Odie Cleghorn very light:

PCHA season he was at the Sibby Nichols level, above Ken Mallen. Neither was drafted in the MLD. Smith never played on a SC winner.
He moved around because his numbers were readily replaceable. Benefitted from playing with HHOFers - Rowe,Lalonde,Pitre, and others.Far from your claim of a key player.

With Pederson and Staal we have the strength down the middle vital to winning.

Your ageism is becoming a joke.

Start with goalies. The following dynasties were based on young goalies stepping up or replacing veterans. Sawchuk in Detroit, Plante in Montreal, Dryden in Montreal, Smith with the Islanders, Fuhr with the Oilers. The you have goalies that won young en route to great careers, Roy, Brodeur.

Karlsson as #1 is well matched and surrounded by veterans. Similar to other great defensemen who impressed early Chelios had the same partner with the Canadiens.

Great teams blend youth and longevity. 1958 - Canadiens after winning their third cup renewed the team. Dropping veterans like St. Laurent and Olmstead. Our team is very solid and well structured.

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