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09-11-2012, 01:16 PM
  #149
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord
- For post-lockout players who have not regularly received more than token votes for awards (which includes players like Streit and Ehrhoff), I 100% agree. We have seen them and we have much better stats with which we can see the big picture than relying on the opinions of 2-11% of hockey writers.
15 writers named Streit on their Norris ballot and 21 named him on their All Star ballot in 2009, hardly "token" voting. Yes, that was the best season of his career.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Seventieslord
It kinda falls into the whole “someone has to score on a bad team” saying. But of course, he is a great PP pointman, that is obvious.
So your favorite measures of defenseman performance - ice time and adjusted plus minus - suddenly fail to be applicable when it comes to Mark Streit, who for two year absolutely owned in both measures? Why is that?

Quote:
Well, 2008 was obviously overrated, as no 17 minute defenseman should ever be considered top-5 in the NHL by anyone. There is no exception.

2010 underrated? Please explain. Should more than three writers have thought he was top-5 in the NHL that year? Looking at the names that finished ahead of him, I’m more surprised three writers saw fit to mention Streit’s name over at least two of them, than the other way around.
Agree about 2008, but it's not surprising, given the number of points he put up. We both know that a small number of writers view the Norris as an Art Ross for defensemen.

As for 2010, hockey is a subjective game and writers votes are always all over the place. You know this. Given Streit's stats, especially compared to his teammates, do you really think Streit wouldn't have gotten more votes if his team made the playoffs? Was he playing at a lower level than Yandle was when Yandle finished 5th in Norris voting? I don't know. I like to think that for most players, there all star records even out to about what they should be, so long as you keep trends in voting in mind

Quote:
In any case, it’s disingenuous to refer to 3 votes from 133 voters in modern times, as anything meaningful. It’s fluff. One could at least refer to it as somewhat meaningful but acknowledge that there are better ways to judge a player than by using 3 votes. (same goes for a guy like Ehrhoff, if 9 and 12 writers in 2011 didn’t incorrectly name him a top-5 defenseman, we’d just be looking at a guy with 5 seasons as a #1-3 defenseman on good teams, which is a decent 5-year performance but doesn’t set him apart from a bevy of undrafted defensemen. The fact that he was selected as high as he was in the last two drafts is a symptom of overreliance on token voting for a post-lockout player)
Unless you apply the same standard to older players, this is awfully close to nitpicking modern players while glossing over the flaws of older guys. We all know the trends in voting - the voters usually have favored offense over defense since expansion.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 09-11-2012 at 01:25 PM.
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