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10-15-2012, 02:16 PM
  #113
Czech Your Math
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
That's not what I said though.
What I said is that Jagr at any time in his career did not match Mario at even strength from 88/89-92/93.
Only after Mario came back from Cancer did Jagr match or slightly out preform Mario at even strength.
I agreed that for career, it's Jagr but not for peak. For peak, only Gretzky and possibly Orr (I'd have to check the numbers) were as prolific or better than Mario at even strength at his peak.
Matching or outperforming Mario at the same time (same season) is not the same as having as good or better a peak or prime. It's no real surprise that a 18-20 y/o Jagr wasn't a match at ES for a 25-27 y/o Lemieux.

If by peak you mean on a per-game basis during each player's single best season, then Mario does have a clear edge due to his incredible '93 season. Like most, I don't tend to use 60 games as determining peak ability, but instead prefer ~3-5 full seasons.

Mario was the master on the PP. He may have been better at ES than Jagr, if he didn't have health issues, but he did, so he wasn't clearly better. It's my understanding that players are evaluated foremost on what they actually did. I never see anyone giving Jagr any extra Rosses, because he may have won them if the Pens' franchise hadn't basically imploded due to ineptness by management and ownership. It seems pretty clear to me that Lemieux and Jagr were in the same range at ES. The closer to a single season or per-game basis, the more it favors Lemieux, but the multiple full seasons tend to favor Jagr.

I'm not sure how Orr factors into this. If you mean "adjusted plus-minus" numbers, then Orr is at or near the top, esp. on a per-game or per-season basis. However, those numbers also favor Jagr as much or more as the ES point numbers. I believe he even gives Gretzky a battle on a career basis, but must defer to Overpass who has much more familiarity and more expertise with that data.

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