View Single Post
10-30-2012, 02:33 PM
Czech Your Math
Registered User
Czech Your Math's Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: bohemia
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 4,484
vCash: 500
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
The strongest competition for the Norris ever was in the late 80s and early 90s, and for some reason people exaggerate how weak Lidstrom's competition was, just because it followed the strongest peak ever. In no way is Lidstrom's competition weaker than the late 60s/early 70s (yes, Bobby Orr faced weaker competition than Lidstrom, though he definitely dominated it) or the early 80s.
Lidstrom's competiton was average at best. There was increased competition purely due to population growth, but not of nearly the same quality as Hasek's (Roy, Brodeur, Belfour, etc.), and he was fortunate to have a lull after the intense top end competition in the 80s and early-mid 90s. The last decade has been pretty weak, aside from the oft-injured Pronger. Neither Lidstrom nor Hasek faced the same influx of competition from overseas (Zubov and Chara do not match Forsberg, Selanne, Bure, Mogilny, Fedorov, Sundin, etc.). In Hasek's case, Roy wasn't as stellar during Hasek's prime, similar to Gretzky in his last few years.

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Jagr played for a long time at a solid level, but not necessarily at an elite level. Take a look at their postseason All-Star Teams:

6X 1st Team All Star (1994, 1995, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2001)

10 X 1st Team All Star (1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2011)
2 X 2nd Team All Star (2009, 2010)

7 X 1st Team All Star (1995, 1996, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2006)
1 X 2nd Team All Star (1997)

Jagr's longevity as an elite player is closer to Hasek than to Lidstrom.
Lidstrom didn't have nearly as tough of competition, certainly not the equivalent of Selanne, Bure, Mogilny, Fleury, Hull, etc. Forwards tend to be judged on points, there was no "well, it's kinda close and we know who the better player is" type of voting for Jagr.

Hasek doesn't have too much outside those all-star years, while Jagr's non AS years included 12th in ES points/6th 5 ES goals/big playoffs during '92 Cup... 94 points and 10th in ES points in '93... top 10 in points/assists and 2nd in ES points in '94... top 5 in points and top 3 in PPG in '02... top 10 in points and strong playoff (Nylander leader in PPG) in '07... strong playoff (PPG leader) in '08... and a missed '05 lockout season during which he led the Czech/Russian leagues in PPG and led Czechs to gold in best on best WC.

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Jagr has a case for being the best forward since expansion other than Gretzky and Lemieux, but in no way is it a consensus. There are definitely people who would pick Messier and/or Lafleur over Jagr.
Consensus may not be the best term, but he won both (HoH and poll section) polls in a landslide for 3rd best forward since expansion. He was not that far from getting the majority of votes in both polls:

Poll: 3rd Best Forward Since Expansion

HoH 3rd Best Forward Since Expansion

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I used to think that way, but I've since decided that Orr and Gretzky were even farther above their peers than Howe.
I'm not sure if that was the case, but their competition was stronger than Howe's IMO... certainly stronger than Morenz's.

Czech Your Math is offline   Reply With Quote