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11-02-2012, 10:20 PM
  #52
DAChampion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twi2teD View Post
Richards and Carter went on to win the Stanley cup, so I'd hold off on pronouncing the trade a good one for Philly.
They won the Stanley Cup as supporting cast members. Players like Kopitar, Quick, Doughty, Brown, etc mattered a lot more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Twi2teD View Post
This is all your opinion, and that's fine, but I don't know how you can predict that we won't be contenders until after Plekanec retires or declines. We very well could win the Stanley cup next year. I don't give a crap about who the favorites are at the beginning of the year. Montreal has most of the premier pieces in place, add some scoring and grit on defense and all bets are off. That could literally be done in one offseason, so no, we shouldn't be blowing up this team. In my opinion.
The reality is that year-in and year-out in the NHL, the best predictor of a team's regular season finish is the previous season's finish. The correlation is extremely high, and the reason for that is obvious: 82 games is a legitimate sample size to measure a team's abilities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Twi2teD View Post
The biggest reason we bombed so hard last year, was our best player, Markov, being once again lost to injury. If he's healthy, which all signs point to, then we are twice the team we are without him. Also let's not forget all the other injuries that plagued us last year. We didn't have any depth to handle them.
Simply not valid. The Markov-less Habs went to 8th place and 6th place in the previous two seasons. The collapse has nothing to do with losing Markov.

You also should not expect the return of 2007-08 Markov. That was five years ago, he's older and rustier now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy View Post
I doubt Plekanec has comparable value to Richards and Carter.
He is a top-20 center in the NHL for offensive skills, he has elite PK skills leading the 2nd best PK unit in the league, he is sturdy with no injury history, He's 30 years old and is signed to a great contract.

Let's say Plekanec is worth less than Richards. Instead of getting Schenn and Simmonds, we get Schenn-equivalent (e.g. Jonathan Huberdeau) and a 2nd rounder. OK, good trade. Instead of getting Couturier and Voracek, we get Couturier-equivalent (e.g. Filip Forsberg, Teuvo Terrevainen) and a 2nd rounder, OK, good trade.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Not a horrible analogy. Point was to show you how dumb it is to think our team is limited to 3rd worst with Plekanec on it. Our team was also 1st a few years ago with Plekanec on it. It's not because we struggled last year that we should get rid of Plekanec now.

As for the Richards-Carter comparison. Well, first off, those two were rumored to have off ice issues, Plekanec not at all. Second, the Flyers believed Giroux could take over as #1 center and he had shown capable of so, we don't have anybody yet that proved that.
Finally, Richards and Carter brought the Flyers to the cup finals, and they won it together in LA. I didn't think it was such a great trade before, and I still don't today.
The return wasn't bad, but Richards is someone I'd take on my team and in the POs any day of the week.
You are making two arguments:

1) That 2013 Montreal trading Plekanec is analogous to 2006 Pittsburgh trading Crosby.
2) That 2013 Montreal trading Plekanec is not analogous to 2011 Philadelphia trading Carter and Richards.

Pause and reflect please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Actually, that's exactly what it means. You make young players play=invest in future. Trading vets for younger good prospects also means investing in the future. Both mean it, and it's not because you don't like Palushaj that he shouldn't be looked at. You also conveniently focused on him and Engqvist, our two worst forward prospects perhaps to have played with us last year. What about all the other names I mentioned, that were actually good.
Playing Palushaj, Engvist, etc is not investing in the future, because their potential rate of return is low. They're not investments, they're collateralized debt obligations or mortgage-backed securities, i.e. what you're doing is taking several different youths who are rated junk bond and assuming that because you have so many of them the total package is "AAA", it's not. Investing in the future means buying dividend-paying blue chips (young players, advanced prospects), or pouring money into venture capital (draft picks).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
As for the other players that we let go, it's been discussed to the point of exhaustion. Stupid mistakes, but it's a previous administration, and it had nothing to do with our ''collapse''. We've been a mediocre-good team under the previous admin over the years, we were again a mediocre team last year that probably would have battled for 8th spot in the POs, until Gauthier decided to fire Martin, replace him with Cunney, and traded away Cammy.
It has everything to do with our collapse. A similar roster went to the conference finals a few years back. A similar roster went to 6th place in the Eastern Conference and took the eventual Stanley Cup champions to a game 7 overtime. However, once you lose Hamrlik, Wisniewski, Halpern, Moore, etc you end up being a weaker team. Due to the fact we had depleted our farm system, because we were not investing in the future, we didn't have anybody to replace those losses.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
This lockout really hurts because this would have been the year to really see Plek-DD-Eller compete against one another (so long as they were given the opportunity to do so). At some point, especially once Gally comes around, we will most likely have to move one of those centers, but we don't have to do it now nor does it absolutely have to be Plekanec.
OK: let's wait longer so as to minimize Plekanec's trade value, we need him to compete for 12th place

BTW, part of the reason for trading Plekanec now for someone who is a prospect/pick now rather than someone who is a prospect/pick in 2015 is that we will need the production in 2015. That's about when Galchenyuk, Beaulieu, etc will be good players.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fozz View Post
As for Philly being a better team without Richards & Carter, how can you make that statement when they got the exact same number of points than the previous season, after having fixed their most important weakness in goals?
2010-2011 Sergei Bobrovsky had a better save percentage than 2011-2012 Ilya Bryzgalov; the latter also had a nervous breakdown in the playoffs.
2010-2011 Chris Pronger played 25 more regular season games, and 13 more playoff games, than 2011-2012 Chris Pronger.

In spite of these setbacks, the 2011-2012 Philadelphia Flyers had a similar regular season finish, and that's because Couturier+Schenn+Voracek+Simmonds >> Carter+Richards.

Imagine how lopsided the trades will appear as Schenn and Couturier enter their primes and both become 60-70 point players.

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