Best Defensive Forward Ever
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11-03-2012, 09:00 PM
Join Date: Nov 2007
Craig Ramsay's 1985 Retirement
Originally Posted by
All those games Ramsay started to miss late in his career as a result of being too small, slow and soft, really seem to back up your point here. Clearly by 1985 he was just losing it.
I "admit" Gainey's edge in three important attributes because they are less important than the actual results. Attributes such as size, speed and physicality are the tools that led to them earning their individual results.
But the results are what matter in the end. If Ramsay managed to achieve results as good or better, then it is worth exploring why. His size, speed and physicality didn't do it for him, so what did? Something had to.
Similarly (yet an obviously extreme example), Al Iafrate was bigger, faster, more physical, and had a bigger shot than Ray Bourque, but that didn't add up to being a better player.
We don't rate Iafrate higher for having better "attributes", we rate Bourque higher for having better results.
And the only reason I ever brought up Gainey's superior attributes was to explain why he was more of a visible player.
An analysis that looks simply at who won the Selke and nothing else (such as who were the runners up, etc) proves absolutely nothing.
To suggest Ramsay was a product of Barrasso is a joke. Ramsay's goals against figures only went down very slightly along with his icetime, after Barrasso arrived.
Did you really think I needed you to remind me when Ramsay retired? You should be intelligent enough to know what "throughout the 1980s" was meant to mean.
The "small rink" effect has been used numerous times to prop up Gilbert Perreault's rather unimpressive offensive resume (unimpressive as far as being a top-100 player goes, that is). The argument has always been "other star players scored about 20% more at home than on the road, but Perreault scored the same at home as on the road; therefore, the smaller rink clearly hurt his ability to be offensively creative at home". The numbers I presented earlier in this thread suggested that Buffalo was 19% better defensively at home, opposed to most teams being in the 13% range over a period of five selected seasons. And just the other day you commented about how Boston Garden was not conducive to the development of a young, mobile (offensive) defenseman. ergo, the smaller rink favours defense. Name dropping some star offensive players who've played in small rinks doesn't make a big impact on that.
And, of course, it's always been argued that maybe Ramsay's defensive stats are better than Gainey's because of the smaller rink - which favoured defense. I tried to address that in the same post above. I have no earthly idea why you're now attempting to claim that a smaller rink favoured offense.
I don't know why you expect one to two dozen games against Rick Middleton to define the careers of two players, when they had a combined 2400+ other games to look at.
And this proves that Ramsay couldn't handle the short shift game,
Still comes down to the simple question why did Craig Ramsay retire in 1985 at the age of 33?:
Sabres lost to the Nordiques in the first round with an uncharacteristically weak defensive effort. The Nordiques playoff roster follows:
Nordiques RWs were J.F.Sauve, Mark Kumpel, Wilf Paiement, Anton Stastny. Not exactly the elite of NHL RWs from any era.
Sad reality was that Craig Ramsay could not cover any of them when they were short shifted:
Nor could he generate any offence as his stats for the 1985 playoffs indicate. So he road off into the sunset a Conn Smythe winner based on memories and a reasonable regular season in front of a young Tom Barrasso.
So its not only his feeble effort against Rick Middleton that has been well documented but he also could no longer check the Nordiques Fearsome Foursome RWs.
Yet you somehow continue to postulate that Craig Ramsay was the Best Defensive Forward Ever. Is there any evidence that you produce to support this claim that has been debunked by his poor playoff performances - see above. Where`s the beef? Show us the meat of your position. Numerous players have been introduced who could actually play defense against the likes of Gordie Howe or various other greats or completely neutralize a Rick Middleton.
Attributes alone if looking at size. View Bob Gainey`s hockey smarts against Al Iafrate`s. Likewise Ray Bourque's hockey smarts vs Al Iafrate`s. Then the results component of the comparable are easy to explain. Craig Ramsay had hockey smarts but lacked the other three qualities that eventually limited his career that peaked when in an ideal partnership with Don Luce and Danny Gare.
Small Rinks - will answer latter.
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