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11-08-2012, 02:29 PM
  #245
Czech Your Math
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
See, this is where common sense takes over.
First of all, you're not taking a modern player back to the 80's with modern training or modern equipment.
I didn't mean that at all. Perhaps the average or 4th line player hasn't substantially improved since the 80s, maybe it's an illusion, it's difficult to say. I may have been hasty in agreeing with that conclusion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Second, a 36 year old Mario, once recovered from Cancer, with a bad back can still be so far above everyone else in the middle of the DPE.
Better than everyone but Jagr... for a half season... after resting for 3.5 seasons. That's incredible, but not entirely surprising, given how far above almost every other player Lemieux was.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Third, Gretzky, as a former shadow of himself at 36-37, also with a bad back is still about a 100 point player and in the top 5 of league scoring.
Again, Gretzky had a large gap between him and almost every other player, so he could decline substantially and still be among the best. If it wasn't for the European players, his decline would have appeared to be even less in comparison to his contemporaries.

I'm sort of missing the point of the fact that Gretzky (and at times, Lemieux) could still be very productive later in their careers... what does this suggest to you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Fourth, I was there when Yzerman scored 155 and It was an almost magical season for him. I'm sorry but the only person I have seen today capable of reproducing that magic is Sidney Crosby now and Jagr of the mid 90's-early 2000's.
That certainly was a magical season. However, when I speak of "peak" production, I generally mean 3-5 seasons, which is enough to establish a peak level IMO.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
And of course fifth, because Jagr (who is no Gretzky or Lemieux) wasn't winning scoring titles by ridiculous margins or by only playing 3/4's of the season only about a decade or so ago right
It's only slowly dawned on many people in recent years just how good Jagr has been. It's a tough act to follow Gretzky and Lemieux, and to play in Lemieux's shadow for a while as well. I think it was almost presumed that another player would come along and dominate the league like Jagr... but it hasn't happened (yet). It should be remembered that Jagr's peak/prime (and ofc career) adjusted even strength production was on a similar level as Lemieux's (better actually, although Lemieux might have the edge on a per-game basis). After Gretzky & Lemieux, the only player with close to Jagr's peak/prime adjusted point production is Espo, who played with Orr in a very diluted league (which deceptively lowered the league gpg). If Gretzky and Lemieux were gods, then Jagr was a demi-god, while Sakic & Yzerman are more "the best mortals can hope to attain."

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