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11-08-2012, 03:01 PM
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Location: Guelph, Ont
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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
I didn't mean that at all. Perhaps the average or 4th line player hasn't substantially improved since the 80s, maybe it's an illusion, it's difficult to say. I may have been hasty in agreeing with that conclusion.

Better than everyone but Jagr... for a half season... after resting for 3.5 seasons. That's incredible, but not entirely surprising, given how far above almost every other player Lemieux was.

Again, Gretzky had a large gap between him and almost every other player, so he could decline substantially and still be among the best. If it wasn't for the European players, his decline would have appeared to be even less in comparison to his contemporaries.

I'm sort of missing the point of the fact that Gretzky (and at times, Lemieux) could still be very productive later in their careers... what does this suggest to you?

That certainly was a magical season. However, when I speak of "peak" production, I generally mean 3-5 seasons, which is enough to establish a peak level IMO.

It's only slowly dawned on many people in recent years just how good Jagr has been. It's a tough act to follow Gretzky and Lemieux, and to play in Lemieux's shadow for a while as well. I think it was almost presumed that another player would come along and dominate the league like Jagr... but it hasn't happened (yet). It should be remembered that Jagr's peak/prime (and ofc career) adjusted even strength production was on a similar level as Lemieux's (better actually, although Lemieux might have the edge on a per-game basis). After Gretzky & Lemieux, the only player with close to Jagr's peak/prime adjusted point production is Espo, who played with Orr in a very diluted league (which deceptively lowered the league gpg). If Gretzky and Lemieux were gods, then Jagr was a demi-god, while Sakic & Yzerman are more "the best mortals can hope to attain."
See...this is the kinda stuff I'm talking about.
You are still using Adjusted Stats as the only basis for the majority of your conclusions and arguments here. After everything that's been said in this thread, that is just R I D I C U L O U S!!!

You said that you believe the best players of the last 20 years could attain 150+ points in the 80's. I got news for ya, Stevie only did that 23 years ago and no one outside of #99, #66 or #68 had come close to that since. Not only that but I have not seen a player outside of those 3 and recently Crosby for half a season come close to matching the level of play Stevie attained in '89. I'm not talking about his points, I'm talking about the level of play he was on that season.

You said that Gretzky couldn't win scoring races by the margins he did in the 80's...AGAIN, Jagr is no Gretzky and Jagr was winning scoring races by ridiculous margins and that's only in the last decade.
Is Gretzky going to win a scoring race by 70 points? Prolly not but is Gretzky going to win scoring races by 40-50%? I'd bet my house on it!

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