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11-11-2012, 09:31 AM
Andy's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2008
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
last i checked MB didn't sign Doan.... making most of these points moot.
How so? The fact that he explicitly said he was chasing Doan means we wanted to fill the hole in the top 6, which means that letting the team be and re-building it instead isn't his number one priority. It's like saying that Gainey's intention was never to get a number one center because he never signed one. Bergevin said he was going for Doan because they lacked scoring in the top 6. So it is entirely relevant. If he wanted to fill the top 6 Jagr should have been an option considering the lack of skill on the team, the hole in top 6 and the crappy pp.

the rumors were there, and indications are that we were in the running (though the rumors on the offer were dubious from what i gathered), but MB ultimately didn't sign Doan.
They weren't rumors. Bergevin in an interview said they were going after Doan and waiting for him to make a decision with PHX.

Bergevin also confirmed that the club has shown some interest in unrestricted free agent forward Shane Doan,
There were other occasions when Bergevin was saying that intended to fill the top 6.

hardly reasonable to critique MB for wanting Doan, and an even bigger stretch to suggest we didn't sign Jagr b/c he was going after Doan.
Where did I critique MB for wanting Doan? I said if Bergevin intended to fill the hole in the top 6, Jagr should have been an option as well considering he would have been signed for cheaper and on a much shorter deal and shouldn't have put all his eggs in one basket. Also considering the lack of pure skill on the team, Jagr would have been a good player to fill in that role and not have us rush Leblanc or Gallagher who MB said might fill the role if they don't find someone for the top 6. We all hated when last management rushed players that weren't ready.

Nothing I've seen indicates MB wanted Jagr. The Doan issue is irrelevant to the discussion on Jagr.
Yes, you are right, MB didn't want Jagr and that is precisely what I didn't like. The Doan issue is relevant because Bergevin intended to fill the hole the top 6, but only chose to pursue Doan to fill that role. When he didn't sign, Bergevin said it will give a chance to Gallagher (who isn't at all ready for top 6 duty) or Leblanc (who should be given more developing time in the ahl) to fill it instead now, which would be pretty much what we've would have done with old management which is to rush prospects. If Bergevin wanted to sign Doan to fill that role, then it's pretty telling that he wanted a competitive team to some extent. Jagr should have been option as well, given his skill, which we lack, his chemistry with Plekanec and his ability to work a PP, which was a big problem last season.

you can choose to ignore the "culture" element, but everything about MB's moves thus far clearly indicate that he's after a specific type of element in his team. There is a strong consistency thus far of his roster & staffing decisions, the kind of consistency that reflects a plan/vision, and precisely the kind of consistency that was completely lacking in the former regime. It's so obvious its a bit puzzling how anyone could legitimately miss it.
Disagreeing with the type of culture he's trying to build is another thing... to each their own opinion of what kind of culture leads to success.
I didn't ignore the culture argument, I'm saying that in one post you said that PG and Martin didn't want Jagr because of their "system" and that this was wrong and then two paragraphs before hand you give credit to Bergevin for wanting to stay with a specific culture. Just because his culture is consistent, doesn't mean it's 100% flawless. With type of "culture" you are inscribing to Bergevin, Montreal would never accept a player like Patrick Kane on their team, who was one of the key cogs in Chicago's cup run and is still a key component. Bergevin has also noted on several occasions that you need all type of players to win in hockey and we severely lack players of Jagr's type, which is why he would have been a good fit.

it is precisely the inconsistency of PG's moves that made the decision not to pursue Jagr even more idiotic. How you could not want a guy like Jagr, only to trade for guys like Kaberle/Bourque a few months later reflects incredibly poor judgement, and the results more than reflect that.
PG didn't pursure Jagr, bit did sign Cole who was a bigger need at the time. Given the discourse around the team after losing the Boston series, the habs needed a player like Cole more so than a guy like Jagr. They didn't have any powerforward type players and Pacioretty was only starting to bud at the time. The habs had plenty of skill in the line up Desharnais, Eller, Andrei and Cammalleri, but they had very little guys who played a meat and potatoes game which the team lacked outside of Pacioretty and Cole.

Like I said, I was severely disappointed when PG didn't sign Jagr at first, because the team definitely needed another top 9 forward, but he still signed Cole which not only filled that need but filled the fact that this team hasn't had a forward like that in the longest time, a forward we could have used against Boston in 7 game series.

That Jagr fits a need this year only further highlights that he would have fit the same need last season...
No not at all. Jagr fits a need this year because there is very little skill on the team. Outside of Desharnais and Eller, I don't think there is any other player who can beat people one on one. Jagr fits a need more so this season considering we have very little skill and many meat and potatoes type players with Prust, Armstrong, Pacioretty, Bourque, Cole and Moen; all guys who are pretty much north-south players, guys who won't beat you one on one. Also given the way the PP finished last year it makes Jagr more of a need. Additionally, the fact that Jagr would play in a top 6 role this year instead of a top 9 role last year means he would more important to the team this year.

Also, Cole was more of a need last season that Jagr given that Montreal's number one problem admitted by pretty much every single fan was that we didn't have any size or physical players who could crash the net or be strong a long the boards. Cole was definitely more of a need.

while we replaced the inconsistent but talented Cammalleri with the inconsistent but less talented Bourque, we also have much more established top-9 commodities in Pacioretty & Desharnais, plus the added fwd depth in Prust/Armstrong. Our fwd group heading into this season is, right now, better than it was a year ago, so i fail to see how you can argue that Jagr makes more sense this year than he did a year ago (one year younger, 1M$ cheaper, bigger need on our part).
Prust or Armstrong are not top 6 players. Niether is Bourque. At this point, I'm not even sure if Gionta is still a top 6 forward. I disagree with the forward depth being much greater this year. Plekanec doesn't even have a top 6 forward to play with where as the start of last season he had two maybe three in Gionta, Cammaller and Andrei. This year he has Gionta. The forward group this year may be better than the forward group that finished off the season last year, but that is irrelavent considering Jagr was signed in the off-season of last year.

When Plekanec doesn't have a top 6 winger to play with this, I really don't see how you can say not-signing Jagr doesn't make as much sense as a year ago when Plekanec could have played with any one of Andrei, Cammaller, Cole, Gionta (who was coming off a 29 goal season) or Pacioretty. Instead, Plekanec has Bourque who doesn't look like he is able to be a top 6 forward and Gionta who we still don't know how he'll recover from his injuries. Given Michel Therrien's insistence that he will not break up Desharnais' line, then Plekanec is stuck without decent wingers, which makes signing Jagr a pretty smart move.

Also, it's pretty interesting and pretty telling considering Plekanec was disappointed we didnt pick up Jagr this off-season.

« J'étais déçu, indique Plekanec, qui a inscrit 17 buts en 81 matchs la saison dernière. J'ai parlé à Jaromir avant le 1er juillet et il me ]disait qu'il était excité à l'idée de venir jouer à Montréal. Il aimait l'équipe et la ville. »

It's strange, b/c the logic behind your arguments seem strikingly familiar to the same type of things you often complained about in defense of the previous regime... could it be the assessment of MB's tenure is a bit clouded by the frustration over backing the wrong horse?

No actually, it's stange because this non-move is the exact type of thing you would have blamed the old regime for. I already said previously that I was disappointed when we didn't Jagr last year, but that disappointment was shouldered by the fact that we picked up Cole who was a much bigger need given the discourse around the team.

The people that didn't like the non-signing of Jagr last year (you included) should not like it this year as well considering he is much more of a need this year(top 6) a need which Bergevin identified when he wanted to fill it with Doan.

The logic behind my argument is simple, we needed a top 6 forward, Bergevin agreed and Jagr should have been an option. The same way I kept on saying last season that a Hamrlik replacement was necessary and was severely disappointed when Gauthier did nothing to address it, especially after he had offered Hamrlik a contract indicating that he needed a similar d-man.

Last edited by Andy: 11-11-2012 at 10:20 AM.
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