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11-13-2012, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by
Well, yeah. That's kind of how adjusted stats work. But hold on a second, I already said that Yzerman's big season still holds up after adjustment. Let's also take a balanced view here. Yzerman certainly deserves credit for being the highest scoring playing once behind only Gretzky and Lemieux, but are we seriously not giving credit to Fedorov for basically doing the same thing (finishing second to Gretzky in scoring) - keeping in mind that he outscored a decent list of players in doing so? Prime Oates, prime Gilmour, prime Roenick, prime Bure... all finished behind Gretzky and Fedorov. Are those names not at least comparable to the guys Yzerman outscored that year (Bernie Nicholls, Rob Brown, Paul Coffey, Joe Mullen, Kurri, etc)?
I've already given Fedorov full credit for his 1994 season. The reason I bring up Yzermans 1989 season is you compared what Yzerman and Fedorov did in the time Theey played together. I simply said you can't ignore that Yzermans best season was before that.
Listen, I've never made much of a big deal about his first knee injury, because he came back and had his career season after that. Now, as redwings19405 points out, that was the source of the scar tissue, so it's certainly something that should be considered.
Regarding the Selke specifically, though, it's basically a wash if we're comparing who the "better player" was. If we're talking about career value, then yeah, that's where the years add up in Yzerman's favour. It does bear reminding, though, that Fedorov (like Forsberg, to his credit) played that kind of defense pretty much from the time he entered the league, whereas Yzerman is given credit for
to that kind of accountable play and maintaining productivity.
Good point. However his 2000 season was as good as Fedorovs second best season IMO. Even past his offensive prime Yzerman had an roughly equal season to Fedorov in his prime. That's where longevity comes into plays
The point is, if someone says "Yzerman was the leader of the Red Wings all those years" as if a) Fedorov was in no way a leader and b) it was his "fault" for never usurping Yzerman's captaincy at any time after joining the Red Wings, well... hence my comparison to the flip side.
he didn't need to take over the captaincy to become the "leader" of the team. He just wasn't better than Yzerman in the time they played together despite yzerman having his best seasons before that time period.
Just to remind you, I had Yzerman and Sakic higher than these other two guys in terms of career value/"all-time" ranking. That you don't find it close, especially considering Fedorov's trump card of having furthermore transitioned into an effective and productive defenseman by the end of his career... I dunno. Pretty special talent, really.
Fedorov was used on defense at times becase he wasn't producing on offense. I don't think Sakic or Yzerman shoulda get punished for consistently producing on offense. Mathieu Dandenault played both positions a well.
Oh definitely, fair enough. If points are what one prioritizes, the strongest argument supports Forsberg as the better offensive player. If one prioritizes goal scoring as a measure of offensive ability, though, are you saying they're wrong for pointing to Fedorov's history of consistently out-scoring Forsberg? We don't have to weigh them the same, as long as we agree that it's
I guess that's a fair point. But does tht make Jari Kurri better than Gretzky offensively in the years he scored more goals? Was Scott Hartnell better than Claude Giroux last year? Placing such a high value on goals completely ignores the pher half of offense. Why should playmakers be punished? If that's your opinion then I can't change that but it just seems like a close minded view.
Woah, Fedorov wasn't "elite for a long time"? Do I necessarily have to subscribe to your definition of "elite" and "long time"? I really don't see how Fedorov
have plenty of impressive seasons to stack up against Forsberg's aggregate measure.
No Fedorov wasn't elite for a long time. I doubt you can back that up. Forsberg had better seasons than Fedorov did for a longer time. Fedorov played longer but he was far from an elite player for quite some time.
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