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11-13-2012, 05:15 PM
Big Phil
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Really, that certain? I've had to think about it, and first of all you have to realize that these guys are separated all time in playoff points by what, 9 points or something? Now, I know Theo had a few playoffs in a row there where he was pretty much GPG, but adding all those post seasons together, you barely top Bure's production from that one playoff that we're supposed to disregard as "preposterously good". I think Bure's career GPG is top 10 all-time, and I'm pretty sure Fleury's isn't. I think Bure has him on PPG, too, despite Fleury's couple of 2 PPG series'.

And considering how big some of those goals were, as opposed to how "big" any of Fleury's really could have been in those years (given that I don't remember them ever winning a series), where does the extra and insurmountable divide come between them? The Cup ring thing, from a year when he probably played the smallest (no pun intended) role of any other post season he'd see? I dunno, I don't see it as a clear decision in Fleury's favour.
It hurts Bure a lot that after 1995 he only played in 4 postseason games. That's just poor in that regards. Whether it was holding out, playing on poor teams or playing on underacheiving teams he just never won a postseason game after 1995 when he was 24. Compare that to Fleury and while he had several disapointments in the postseason he always brought his team there and there isn't a time you would ever think Fleury was the cause of his team being knocked out. Granted, Fleury's resume could be better in the postseason too. Both could use some better raw stats, but it is certainly comparable. Even if you did a poll back then and even today on who you would want on your team for a playoff run would it be that crazy to pick Fleury knowing what you'll get?

Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
You don't see how Neely was better than Fleury? Really? He was one of the best scorers in the world, and essentially created the power forward role. Bure was the single best goal scorer in the world for a time. Both guys had injuries that derailed their success. Fleury had strippers and blow to derail his success. Fleury isn't even close to the same level as Neely or Bure.
Well I am not making excuses for Fleury at all, but he was sexually abused a million times as a teenager by an influential hockey coach. You have to understand what kind of psychological damage that does to a young kid. How do you ever cope with this? You aren't going to let it effect your career and you certainly don't want to have a stigma about this while you are in a locker room full of guys. Sad to say, the only way to deal with this could be alcohol and drugs. So I think in many ways what he had was worse and less self imposed.

But onto the response, I certainly can see how Fleury is above Neely on an all-time level.

Fleury - 1088 points in 1084 games
Neely - 694 points in 726 games

Give Cam a bit of a playoff edge but nothing earth shattering. Cam was never top 10 in points but Fleury was better in that category than someone elected to the HHOF yesterday (Sundin). As far as top 10 in goals go it's pretty close:

Neely - 2, 3, 8, 9
Fleury - 2, 6, 7

Fleury had far more productive seasons in the NHL and that is what counts most. Neely falls into a "what if" factor while Fleury does to an extent but still has the stats to back it up. If you want to give Neely a pass for injuries then why not give Fleury a pass in 2001 when he was 3rd in scoring 2/3 of the way through the season only to go to rehab? Either way, the guy had a better career than Neely.

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