Thread: Proposal: Edmonton + Philadelphia/Dallas
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11-14-2012, 03:22 AM
  #95
hairylikebear
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MastuhNinks View Post
I never said that 1st overall picks are always better than later round picks, I said that in recent history 1st overall picks (particularly forwards) have been consistently better than Benn is now at his age. And I backed that up with statistics. But please, continue to straw man if you can't come up with an actual argument.
Don't act like such a victim by pulling that straw man BS. You knew what you were implying. This thread is not about Benn vs recent first round picks, it's about Benn (and Couturier for that matter) vs Yakupov. By merely mentioning other first round picks and (correctly) identifying Yakupov as a member of that group, you are making one of two arguments:
  1. All first overall picks are better than Benn; Yakupov is a first overall pick; Yakupov is better than Benn.
  2. Some overall picks are better than Benn; Yakupov is a first overall pick; Yakupov is better than Benn.
Option one is an unpopular, but defensible position, though you probably wouldn't have much luck convincing the masses. Option two is a syllogistic fallacy, and it's apparent now that that's the argument you were attempting to use. You'll have to excuse me for giving you the benefit of the doubt and challenging your hockey beliefs and not your grasp of rudimentary logic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MastuhNinks View Post
And the value thing is not really about opinion, so you disagreeing is meaningless. It's pretty much a fact that a player's draft position can impact their value. Now, please don't decide to go the immature route and say, "Oh so [worse player who was drafted higher] is worth mroe than [better played who was drafted lower]?" because all I'm saying is it's definitely a factor, but not the be-all end-all. Do you honestly think Kyle Turris was valued to be worth David Rundblad and a 2nd round pick because of his production at the NHL level? Serious question, please, if you're so sure of yourself, actually dispute my points rather than just dodging them.
"Pretty much a fact" is a funny way of saying "opinion." And how is it immature to provide a counter-example to an opinion falsely declared as fact? Although if I did what you say, then I would be guilty of straw man.

Anyway, I believe Kyle Turris held that kind of value because the Senators still thought he had at least some of the potential that earned him so much attention in his draft year. I think draft position affects trade value indirectly in that a player that is drafted high has a different development path than a player that is drafted low, and therefore develops into a different calibur of player, and for that reason has different trade value. Maybe if Turris were drafted in the 7th round, he wouldn't have been fast tracked to the AHL, and possibly been left to rot in the ECHL (or worse ). However, if he were drafted that low, that means he was a less effective player at that age, which would be the likely reason for any change in trade value. Of course, after the Turris trade, Senators fans raved about his play, so maybe he returned a good package because he's a good player. Insanity, I know.

That whole bit is kind of off topic, though, because I'm pretty sure you meant that draft position directly affects trade value, ie if a GM is on the fence about a trade, mentioning the draft position of any of the players involved will somehow tip the scales. Seems to me that if you were to tell Burke he should pull the trigger on Kessel because he's a 5th overall pick, he'd probably ignore you.

Let me put it this way, if I paid some team $20 million to draft me first overall, what kind of value could they get in return for me? With no information whatsoever besides my draft position, no video, no statistical history, no first hand accounts, no knowledge of our impressively illegal arrangement , would a team still blow a 7th round pick, one that could potentially turn into a useful player, on my rights?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jgoud View Post
When two players have been drafted a year apart and are still under 20 years of age, unless one has made an unexpected impact in the nhl/khl, then yes, draft position does apply to trade value and you are completely wrong.
I couldn't disagree more.


Last edited by hairylikebear: 11-14-2012 at 03:35 AM.
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