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11-14-2012, 11:16 AM
  #244
seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
1) Longevity.
2) Better regular season play.
3) Better play on a variety of situations. (Broda was pretty much only great with the Hap Day dynasty. Benedict was great with dynasty Sens, great with a young Maroons team and very good with the transitional Sens of the mid 10's.) Granted this is similar to longevity, but an important part of why longevity is important.
Also – who says that Benedict wasn’t also better in the playoffs? It certainly shouldn’t be open-and-shut.

For example, in the 1928 playoffs, he had four shutouts… twice what all the other goalies in the NHL had combined! His .86 GAA was just over half of the next best guy’s.

And this wasn’t even one of the four times he won the cup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ContrarianGoaltender View Post
Playoff numbers for team success vs. expected:

RankGoalieSeries WExp SeriesDiff%CupsExp CupsDiff%
1Turk Broda1510.34+4.66+45%53.07+1.93+63%
2Charlie Gardiner53.10+1.90+61%10.28+0.72+257%
3Ed Belfour1917.77+1.23+7%11.65-0.65-39%
4Johnny Bower86.97+1.03+15%32.37+0.63+27%
5Tony Esposito98.43+0.57+7%00.76-0.76-100%
6Bernie Parent98.48+0.52+6%20.99+1.01+102%
7Georges Vezina32.60+0.40+15%32.60+0.40+15%
8Clint Benedict55.55-0.55-10%33.80-0.80-21%
9Frank Brimsek78.37-1.37-16%22.84-0.84-30%
10Bill Durnan57.4-2.40-32%23.05-1.05-34%

I think Tony Esposito's playoff failures are generally overblown. He also has a very strong regular season record, ranking #1 all-time among goalies in regular season GVT. That is in part because of the lack of parity in the 1970s, but in terms of career regular season value Esposito certainly rivals anybody in this group.

I'm still not sold on Bill Durnan. To rank him in the top four this round (which is higher than I currently have him), I'd like to see more evidence that his individual statistical performance was great, or at least that knowledgeable observers who weren't his coaches or teammates rated him very highly, based on his play and not just on his accomplishments (All-Stars, Vezinas, etc.).
Two very, very good points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanf View Post
I had time and made a quick search about Benedict.Found this

source is 19.2.1927 New Castle News
Text is partly too unclear for me so the bolded are straight quotes (with possible misspells by me).

They made a ranking of best goalies at the time. I have understood that it is small newspaper but the writer himself admits that he is too rookie to make a list so they ask the question from "three qualified experts from New York, Boston and Montreal."

Here is their top six
1. Alec Connell 2. Vernon Forbes 3. "Sleepy" Clint Benedict 4. Jack Roach 5. Hugh Lehman 6. Roy Worters

About Benedict "For a long time almost a unanimous choice for the best goalie, but undoubtedly slipping a bit this year"

I think that on the unclear part there are arguments about all the goalies. This is not only GAA based ranking. Here is what they say about Chabot."A wonderful goalie to be sure and ranking right along with Connell as far goals scored against him go" Still they didnīt rank him in top six. Though the reason could be that this was made in the middle of his first season in NHL (same goes to Hainsworth) .

I remember reading a claim that Maroons acquired Flat Walsh at that season because of Benedicts "slipping". That seemed to be only temporary and Walsh got his chance only after Benedicts injury in 1929-1930 season. I found many articles from late 20īs which calls him "still one of the best".
Very interesting. I like Benedict and I’d like to consider this useful; however, at the same time, Connell was never considered one of the NHL’s two best goalies as of the end of any season, so I have to wonder if this list was based on fringe opinions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 View Post
Tough for me to give Esposito any serious consideration this round. If he's considered the 4th best goalie of the 70's behind Dryden, Tretiak, and Parent, I can't justify putting him ahead of any guys who were considered the best in the world or co-best in the world.

Esposito seems to be comparable to Belfour and Bower in the sense that they were great goalies that had very tough competition (Roy, Hasek, Brodeur, Barrasso) and (Plante, Hall, Sawchuk, Worsley). Esposito appears to have the best regular season resume of the 3, but also the worst playoff resume.

Those 3 will likely be my bottom 3 this round.

Something else to think about...what would Esposito's AS record look like had Tretiak and Holecek also been competing with him for those?
How about this then. Consider him 3rd best of the 70s, since Parent was only better than him in Flashes - and put Brimsek (easily the best of the 40s) ahead of him, and consider that the 40s were horrible, and yes, it’s easy to put the 3rd goalie of the 70s in before the 2nd of the 40s.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
@anyone: So...Bernie Parent dominates Tony Esposito so badly that it's not even close...?
I certainly don’t think so.

Esposito was always better than Parent, year in, year out, except for 1974 and 1975. If that peak is so outstanding that Parent should be ahead on the basis of it, then fine, people can go ahead and vote Parent ahead, but they should be well informed as to what they’re voting. As your next post implies, it kinda sets a dangerous precedent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. I also value how much Esposito dominated his own backups statistically. Parent can't exactly say that (hell, Stephenson gets them to the Cup in '76 just the same). I'm just trying to gauge the feeling of the group and if I'm missing something important here. It seems Parent is above this obvious divide above Esposito...and granted Parent's two years were amazing and Tony O had his playoff struggles to whatever degree...but I keeping looking for "what else" with Parent and every time I check, I think I sour on him a little more.

I'm just worried that this opens the door for others to get away with having an unsustained, short peak - which allows more room to question how much was team-influenced - and an otherwise "meh" to "very good" career. Parent, of course, has a good career...but how much mileage is really going to get out of those two years in the grand scheme of things?

I'm sorry that this is how I handle things, but looking at Wayne Stephenson - who appears to be a career backup who only surfaced after another couple rounds of expansion (was 22 when the big first expansion hit) took place...this guy, during this stretch of Flyer dominance, happened to go 59-15-16 (what's that? like a near .750 points pct?) with a 2.54 GAA and .908 save pct. and 5 shutouts.

Of note and for minor context, that .908 save pct. would rank him (among goalies who played at least half the games): 5th in 1975 (Vachon (LA), Parent (PHI), Bouchard & Myre (ATF)); 4th in 1976 (Resch (NYI), Dryden (MTL), Bouchard (ATF)); 3rd in 1977 (Dryden (MTL), Resch (NYI)) if ranked for each individual season.

I wish NHL Vault was working better for me, I think it's time to do some video work...I'm not sure this is looking good numbers-wise for Parent...
You are absolutely right, and I bolded the best part vis-ā-vis Parent vs. Esposito.

As for stats, here are their numbers from 1970-1979, the years they were in the league as starters together:

Year E Min E sv% P Min P sv% % edge min % edge sv%
1970 3763 0.932 3680 0.921 2 16
1971 3325 0.919 2646 0.914 26 6
1972 2780 0.934 2715 0.914 2 30
1973 3340 0.917 N/A N/A N/A N/A
1974 4143 0.928 4314 0.933 -4 -7
1975 4219 0.905 4041 0.918 4 -14
1976 4003 0.904 615 0.907 551 -3
1977 4067 0.9 3525 0.899 15 1
1978 3840 0.914 2923 0.912 31 2
1979 3780 0.901 1979 0.893 91 8

As you can see, Esposito was ahead of Parent in 6 of 8 comparable seasons (1976 was a shortened season for Parent), and significantly in four of them. Over the entire period, Parent leads .915 to .914, but in 1970-1973, and 1976-1979, it is .914 to .911 for Esposito.

Esposito also did this while usually playing more minutes, aside from 1974. This is important for two reasons. 1) Bigger sample size tells us more. 2) it shows that he had greater durability and ability to handle more starts. As I will soon show, Esposito’s status as a workhorse goalie is almost unprecedented in the post-expansion age.

And, of course, this period omits Esposito’s last 1st all-star team, from 1980.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Thanks for adding the shots. And I'm sorry, but something doesn't compute. Johnny Bower played for the most defensive team of the era - the Toronto Maple Leafs, coached by Punch Imlach, featuring Tim Horton, Carl Brewer, Allan Stanley, and Bob Baun on D with Dave Keon and Red Kelly at C, and we're supposed to believe they allowed more shots than most teams?

Likewise, Glenn Hall's Blackhawks were apparently known as a run-and-gun team, and we're supposed to believe they allowed fewer shots?

It doesn't add up. There's a reason I don't really trust unofficial save percentages, there is no way to know the quality of the shot recording at the time.
This makes it hard for me to get over as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Yes, but wasn't a big part of the case for Glenn Hall in Vote 1 that he was the biggest reason their GAAs remained low?
Yeah, I dunno, kinda sounds like trying to have it both ways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Apparently the 1925 article in MacLean's magazine selecting Georges Vezina the best goalie of all time up to that point was referring to All-Star teams put together by some serious heavyweights.

From the hockey history site on yahoo:

http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group.../message/20402

Note that Benedict's revival with the Maroons would not be included in these rankings as it happened afterwards.

Note that the article came out on March 19, 1925. Vezina would not fall ill with TB until the beginning of the following NHL season and did not die until March 27, 1926. So this All-Time All Star team put together by the experts was NOT affected by his death.

Vezina will be in my top 4 this round, likely second. Edit: Although, honestly after seeing who was involved in putting together the 1925 All-Time All Star Team, I'm actually considering whether to rank Vezina over Brimsek or not.
Ugh, look at some of those names in there. Lalonde and Taylor on the 3rd team? How seriously can we take this?

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