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11-15-2012, 01:20 PM
  #152
pdd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyBluesFan View Post
Modern players only and basing it on how good they were in their primes not careers

1.Gretzky
2.Hasek
3.Pronger
4.Lemiuex
5.Jagr
6.Bure
7.Lindros
8.Ovechkin
9.Brodeur
10.Bourque/Stevens
You are one bitter Blues fan, huh? Not acknowledging Yzerman or Lidstrom?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider View Post
Although it's factually correct that Barry outscored Morenz during the eight years where their careers overlapped, this is highly misleading for several reasons:

- This eight year comparison includes virtually all of Barry's offensive prime (he was a top ten scorer just once for the remainder of his career) while it excludes the majority of Morenz's prime (five out of the seven times that "l'homme eclair" finished in the top five in scoring fall outside your period of comparison).

- During the first six seasons where their careers overlapped (1930 to 1935), Morenz convincingly outscored Barry 240-218 while playing fewer games - and again, this excludes the majority of Morenz's best seasons. Barry was only able to catch up due to Morenz slowing down in 1936 and 1937 due to age (he also missed around a quarter of the 1937 season due to his career-ending, and some believe life-ending, leg injury).

- Barry never won the Hart and placed in the top five once (5th in 1937). Morenz won the Hart three times (1928, 1931, 1932) and was also runner-up in 1925.

- Morenz was routinely considered one of the great players of the first half of the 20th century (along with Shore, Nighbor, Taylor, etc). Barry was never anywhere close.

This is almost like comparing Tony Amonte to Steve Yzerman from 1996 to 2004 and concluding that Yzerman is "highly overrated" because Yzerman is considered an "all-time great" while Amonte is "just another dead puck era player" (and Amonte does in fact outscore Yzerman during this carefully-selected period which includes Amonte's offensive prime but excludes Yzerman's).
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Points finishes:

Marty Barry: 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 4th, 7th, 8th
Howie Morenz: 1st, 1st, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 7th, 10th, 10th

Hart Trophies:

Howie Morenz: 3
Marty Barry: 0

In 1950, Morenz was chosen hockey's greatest player of previous half-century by the Canadian Press.

The votes were:

Howie Morenz 27
Maurice Richard 4*
Cyclone Taylor 3
Frank Nighbor 2

Tied with 1: Syl Apps, Turk Broda, Aurel Joliat, Newsky Lalonde, Milt Schmidt, Eddie Shore, Nels Stewart

*Only 5 years into his career

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...e+taylor&hl=en

Marty Barry was better at being a Red Wing than Howie Morenz, though.
Yes, now refute my point about their scoring totals.

Even career, Morenz is only slightly ahead.
Morenz 271-201-471 in 550 (40-30-70 per 82)
Barry 195-192-387 in 509 (31-30-61 per 82)

Is that the difference between an average first line center and one of the top five or ten centers of all-time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by shazariahl View Post
As for giving up so many points while on the ice, this is a combination of highscorjng era on a team ghat didn't play much defense and playing on the first unit pk most his career. According to your method, Gretzky would have been better defensively if he hadnt killed penalties.
Getting scored against while shorthanded does not affect your plus-minus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Stevens is considered one of the best defensive defensemen of all-time and playyed the bulk of his career on a defensive team and he's #5. So take a list like this with a grain of salt.
Stevens wasn't a defensive defenseman until the mid-90s. He used to be a faster, meaner version of Kevin Hatcher. Dion Phaneuf came into the league playing Stevens' early-career style. Stevens also played a lot of minutes for a fairly thin Washington team in the 80s. The problem with Stevens is that he had two separate careers and people like to take his defensive excellence from New Jersey, and overlay it on top of his Washington offense, and then suggest that he was that good every year.

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