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11-17-2012, 09:32 PM
  #306
Hardyvan123
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Why Lidstrom is higher than Harvey (and everyone else for that matter)

let's just start by comparing two guys who are very similar in Harvey and Lidstrom.

Lidstrom is the dominant dman of his generation and has an incredible career from 92-12

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

1st in regular season games by a Dman over that time. Pretty much 1st overall in every statistical category over that time. Alot is because he enjoyed great health but he was the best Dman during that stretch by quite a bit.

Here are his regular season breakdowns (Norris mainly)

In his 1st season in 92 he is in the mix for the Calder (probably should have won it) and was 8th in all star voting for Dmen.

93(22) He suffers a bit of the sophomore slump.

94 (23) He has one vote placing him 20th overall for an all star berth

95 (24) Doesn't figure in Norris or all-star voting due in part to shortened season and limited voting.

Still overall in his 1st 3 years he has been pretty productive and has been during that stretch at least one of the top 20 Dmen overall IMO.

96 (25) he places 6th in Norris and all-star voting behind Chelios, Bourque, Leetch, Vlad Konstantinov and Paul Coffey (that's 2 guys from Canada, 2 from Europe and 1 from US)

97 (26) he places 6th in Norris and all star voting again behind Leetch, Vlad, Sandis Ozolinsh, Chelios and Scott Stevens (only 1 Canadian this year)

When we look at Harvey he doesn't show up till he ranks 2nd in his age 27 year so everything listed above is before Harvey finds his way in any all-star voting (Norris didn't exist yet)

98 (27) finshes 2nd behind Blake for Norris 401-369 and 1st in all star voting. Others were Pronger, Stevens, Nieds,Larry Murphy, Bourque, Al Mac (all those guys are Canadians)

99 (28) finishes 2nd behind Al Mac 548-234, Bourque and Pronger round out the top 4.

00 (29) 2nd to Pronger (his Hart year) 505-400, Blake, Desjardins, Gonchar, Chelios and Bourque round out the top 7.

01 (30) 1st Norris 600-251 over Bourque followed by Stevens, Blake and Leetch

02 (31) 2nd Norris over Chelios 472-431 followed by Blake, Gonchar and Pronger

03 (32) 3rd Norris over al Mac 560-486 follwed by Derian Hatcher, Gonchar and Rob Blake

04 (33) finishes 6th in Norris voting behind Nieds, Chara, Pronger, McCabe, Aucoin

05 lockout

06 (35) 4th Norris over Nieds 1152-817 followed by Zubov, chara, Redden, Schneider, Pronger and Phaneuf

07 (36) 5th Norris over Nieds 1217-1024 followed by Pronger, Boyle, Timonen, Phaneuf and Gonchar

08 (37) 6th Norris over Phaneuf 1313-561 followed by Chara, Gonchar, Campbell, Markov, Mike Green

Harvey also get his last Norris here at the same age of 37 which we will note when we get to him.

09 (38) Chara 1034, Green 982, Lidstrom 733, Weber 186, Boyle 173, Keith 95, Markov 95


10 (39) Keith 1096, Green 831, Doughty 662, Lidstrom 303, Pronger 168, Boyle 116, Weber 96, Chara 88

11 (40) wins his 7th Norris (okay it's mostly a rep vote but he is still a legit solid top 3 Dman in the league) over Weber 736-727 followed by visnosky, Yandle, Letang

12 (41) he finishes a respectable 5th behind

Karlsson 1069
Weber 1057 (the modern Scott Stevens?)
Chara 950
Piets 381
Lidstrom 132

It's a pretty darn good record for Lidstrom in the regular season here.

Over to Harvey he joins the NHL in 48 aged 23 and plays until 64 before coming back with St Louis and a really good season in 69 at age 44 for Scotty Bowman.

For his career I was generous and only took his 48-63 totals which was the last year he finished in the Norris voting except fro teh 1 vote he got in 69 which we will get to later.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

Harvey is by the far the leader here in his time, although it's ahrd to say what would have happened had Kelly stayed on the back end but he didn't so I won't go there...yet.

Gadsby scores more goals but Harvey is clearly the dominant Dman for that period of time IMO.

Here are his all-star (until Norris voting begins) then Norris finishes during his career.

48 (23) Quackenbush, Stewart, Reardon, Colville (10 guys but no Harvey but he only plays a little over half of the season)

49 (24) Quackenbush, Stewart, Harmon, Reardon and 2 others in top 6 no Harvey

50 (25) Morton, Reardon, Riese, Kelly and 4 others no Harvey

51 (26) Kelly, Quackenbush, Thomson, Riese (no Harvey)

52 (27) Kelly 90 (18-0-0) Harvey 56 (8-5-1), Hy Buller 47 (1-13-1) Jim Thomson 38

53 (28) Kelly 90 (18-0-0), Harvey 56 (8-5-1), Quackenbush 44 (4-7-3), Gadsby 30 (3-2-9)

54 (29) 1st Norris for Kelly over Harvey 162-57 followed by Gadsby (38) and Horton 26

55 (30) 1st Norris for Harvey over Kelly 147-95 followed by Flanman (33), Bob Goldman 16 and Hugh Bolton.

56 (31) 2nd Norris for Harvey over Gadsby 156-59 followed by Kelly (44) who played enough as a forward to get an all-star vote and wasn't a full time Dman after this point it seems or at least not in the voters minds but that's a bit of speculation on my part as well. Tom Johnson rounds out the top 4

57 (32) 3rd Norris for Harvey over Kelly 159-42 followed by Flanman 35, Gadsby 32 and doug Mohns 23

58 (33) 4th Norris for Harvey over Gadsby 153-119 followed by flanman 17, Stewart 13, Marcel Pronovost 7, Kelly 3 (obviously not a Dman in the voters eyes any more) and Tom Johnson 3.

59 (34) Tom Johnson 92
Bill Gadsby 67
Marcel Provost 58
Harvey 48
Flanman 34

This season seems to stick out in regards to Harvey having a Norris in the season before and the season after as well and he did miss only 9 games (he missed 8 in 56 and his scoring dropped in half but he only scored 7 more points in 60 when he wins the Norris again).

60 (35) wins 5th Norris over Stanley 129-42 followed by Pronovost 39 and Pierre Pilote 33

61 (36) wins 6th Norris over Pronovost 162-52 followed by Stanely 27 and Pilote 24

62 (37) wins his 7th and final Norris over Pilote 102-47 followed by JG Talbot 46 and Carl Brewer 41.

This one might have been a bit of a reputation vote and Pilote missed 11 games.

63 (38)

Pilote 98
Brewer 81
Horton 37
Vasko 28
Gadsby 25
Harvey 14

64 (39) Pilote 138 over Horton 70 (14 guys get at least 1 point but Harvey isn't one of them as he only plays 14 NHL games and is released and plays in the AHL)

69 (44) he plays for st Louis and get 1 vote for the Norris good for 13th overall and might ahve been the 13th best Dman in the league that year.


Here is how the 2 guys rank against all of their piers in the playoffs

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

Nick is

1st in GP
2nd in points
5th in goals
1st in assists
1st in plus/minus

Here is Harvey

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

He is 8th in points
1st in GP

Harvey has more SC than Lidstrom but also has 4 guys who scored more points than him just on his team in the playoffs as well.

Even if one buys into the "Harvey wrote the book" argument it doesn't outweigh the overall advantage that Lidstrom has IMO.

Harvey had great longevity in his time but it's doubtfull that his Norris trophies were against any better competition than Lidstroms and Nick has some seriously good voting results against some all time greats before his age 27 season as well, something that Doug doesn't have.

I'm a huge career guy and try to look at everything that a player does in his career but I really don't see any argument for Harvey over him at all even if we are only talking peak or prime as well.

All of this is before we even factor in that Nick does all of this against increased competition in the form of other player from Europe and the US that weren't around in the mix when Harvey played (which allows for greater chance of variance in top seasons, awards and playoff success in terms of the SC ect...)

Nick's dominance, longevity and totality of his career make him the #1 Dman of all time IMO.

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