HOH Top 60 Defensemen of All-Time
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11-18-2012, 07:31 PM
Join Date: Jul 2010
Originally Posted by
Offensively, it's really not close between the two. They are both good-very good PP QB's but Bourque's offense at even strength is night and day to Lidstrom's.
Defensively, strictly speaking in the defensive zone, Lidstrom has the edge but overall...Bourque's ability to control the entire ice and his puck possession (which is a part of playing defense btw) again, is night and Day.
Of course Bourque's edge is greater because you like to focus on counting stats. Ray is better offensively but it's not night and day.
And playoffs, I think Bourque was MORE dominant that Lidstrom ever was in the playoffs. Bourque had a hell of a lot more to do with the Bruins winning in the playoffs than Lidstrom had to do with the Wings winning.
Look at all the stats of those Bruin teams when Bourque was on the ice and when he wasn't. It's ridiculous.
Bourque played on some teams that weren't as stacked as Detroit's but I don't see were Ray has the playoff edge you clearly didn't even bother to read my post or how he ranks in the playoffs with all players during his time played.
So you'll have to excuse me if I take your opinion with a grain of salt when your criteria and the weight you give that criteria doesn't remain the same.
Or, to put it a better way, you are doing what you like to accuse me of doing..."moving the goal posts"
I don't waver, I look at all of the information available from as many angles as possible, and don't pretend to have all of the answers either. Usually I have more questions than answers. I'll defer to you as the king of the moving goalposts.
I don't see a lot of difference between their peaks and primes. Career...Lidstrom only played 2 more seasons than Harvey and playoffs...seriously, Harvey anchored teams to 10 straight Final appearances, 11 overall and won 6 Cups.
Well you are one to talk about team strength, it's not like Harvey was playing on average teams. The point was that Lidstrom was getting recognition before Harvey was and against kick ass competition to boot.
Watch some of his games, you will take note of how he controlled the tempo and pace of the game. And anchoring the defense of all those Cup teams kinda speaks for itself.
Yes I have seen the clips and Harvey had a great skillset but seriously the level of play wasn't an all time high then either so I take the hyperbole and exaggeration with a grain of salt and put it into context. Ditto for Lidstrom he wasn't "perfect."
[/QUOTE]I'm sorry, I guess I missed the part where Lidstrom was named an All-star prior to age 28.[/QUOTE]
No one said he was, didn't you read my posts?
Oh look, you're looking for another kick at the can again. We have been through this at length. There were newspaper articles brought out showing that Lidstrom's defense in the first half of the 90's was NOT what it became later on. Multiple Detroit writers were having trouble differentiating between Lidstrom's defensive play and Coffey's for pete's sake. I mean even I think those writers were exaggerating a bit but still, there's no way in hell that mistake could be made after '97/'98. He simply wasn't the pillar of defense then you're trying to make him to be.
You continue to try and to portray the Lidstrom we all saw from '98-'09 onto the Lidstrom we all saw from '91-'97 and '10-'12.
It's pure revisionism!
The typical straw man, I'd like you to actually read the posts, I stated in his 1st 3 years that he was a top 20 Dman in the league. No mention that he was a Norris winner and robbed.
Seriously anyone confusing Coffey and Lidstroms defensive play at any time is a joke.
Not clear at all. The only edge you have presented that seems clearly in Lidstrom's corner, is playoff games played.
Now considering that Harvey played in 10 straight finals...how many more playoff games do you think that would be worth in today's 4 round format? 100-150?
I didn't compare Harvey and Lidstroms totals to each other I compared them to their piers. Either you can't read or were too busy writing your preconceived notions of what you thought I said, either way you are wrong here.
Lidstroms offensive contributions and plus minus in the playoffs from 92-12 is simply world class and at a higher level against his peers than Harvey period.
I will list them again here for you.
Here is how he ranked among all players not just Dmen
1st in GP
2nd in points
5th in goals
1st in assists
1st in plus/minus
All of this and he is known more for his defense than offense.
I thought Lidstrom should be rated above Harvey when we did the top 60 project and I'm even more clear on that thought now.
The facts of the matter support this opinion as well I think and that even before we get into any discussion about the level of play and competition levels in the NHL during the 2 different times.
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