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11-18-2012, 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
I don't waver, I look at all of the information available from as many angles as possible, and don't pretend to have all of the answers either. Usually I have more questions than answers. I'll defer to you as the king of the moving goalposts.
Then explain to me how your criteria keeps changing depending on whether you are comparing to Bourque or you are comparing to Harvey and Orr.

Well you are one to talk about team strength, it's not like Harvey was playing on average teams. The point was that Lidstrom was getting recognition before Harvey was and against kick ass competition to boot.
I talk about team strength when it's vastly different between two players and weigh it accordingly. It has not place in a conversation about Harvey and Lidstrom.
And saying Lidstrom got "recognized" due to receiving a single Norris vote....

Yes I have seen the clips and Harvey had a great skillset but seriously the level of play wasn't an all time high then either so I take the hyperbole and exaggeration with a grain of salt and put it into context. Ditto for Lidstrom he wasn't "perfect."
The level of play was the highest in the world at the time.
Faulting a player for being born in 1924 instead of 1970 or 1990 aint going to get you any where.
I believe there is even sticky about this kind of ******** around here

No one said he was, didn't you read my posts?
So what was the point of you mentioning it, if it had nothing to with Lidstrom?

The typical straw man, I'd like you to actually read the posts, I stated in his 1st 3 years that he was a top 20 Dman in the league. No mention that he was a Norris winner and robbed.
Top 30...maybe and being robbed by Blake is an opinion, as is Weber getting robbed in '11 sooo....
One thing I will say though, is that the opinion of Weber being robbed in '11 is a lot "stronger" than the opinion that Lidstrom was robbed in '98.

Seriously anyone confusing Coffey and Lidstroms defensive play at any time is a joke.
With Lidstrom after '97, definitely, previous that...not so much. Not a joke anyway, only in your revisionist world.

I didn't compare Harvey and Lidstroms totals to each other I compared them to their piers. Either you can't read or were too busy writing your preconceived notions of what you thought I said, either way you are wrong here.

Lidstroms offensive contributions and plus minus in the playoffs from 92-12 is simply world class and at a higher level against his peers than Harvey period.

I will list them again here for you.

Here is how he ranked among all players not just Dmen

1st in GP
2nd in points
5th in goals
1st in assists
1st in plus/minus

All of this and he is known more for his defense than offense.

I thought Lidstrom should be rated above Harvey when we did the top 60 project and I'm even more clear on that thought now.

The facts of the matter support this opinion as well I think and that even before we get into any discussion about the level of play and competition levels in the NHL during the 2 different times.
Hahaha you took Lidstrom's 20 years in the league and gauged everyone against just THOSE years.

First of all, if you are doing those numbers against all players and not just D-men, it should read...

1st in GP
7th in points (Jagr, Selanne, Sakic, Recchi, Sundin and Modano)
84th in goals
2nd in assists
1st in plus/minus

Look what happens when I do that for Bourque..79/80-00/01

2nd in GP (3 games behind #1)
5th in points (Gretzky, Yzerman, Francis and Messier)
34th in goals
2nd in assists (only behind Gretzky)
1st in plus/minus

Hey, look what happens when I do the same for Leetch 88/89-05/06, just vs D-men...

5th in GP (Lidstrom 10th)
1rst in points (Lidstrom 5th)
2nd in goals (Lidstrom 8th)
1rst in assists (Lidstrom 6th)
139th in plus/minus (Lidstrom 3rd)

The only reason Lidstrom's offense looks so good is because he wasn't up against a very good class or very consistent group of offensively gifted D-men.

The argument used to be that Lidstrom's offense was the best anyone's could be in today's PP oriented league. That it was no longer possible for a D-man to be successful at even strength offensively like Leetch or Bourque or Coffey was.

Enter stage left...Erik Karlsson, who put up 35% more even strength points last year than Lidstrom did in his best year.
Proving that it's not that it wasn't possible, just that there weren't any D-men playing that were capable of doing it in the league any more.

Last edited by Rhiessan71: 11-18-2012 at 11:32 PM.
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