HOH Top 60 Defensemen of All-Time
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11-19-2012, 03:23 AM
Just a Fool
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Guelph, Ont
Originally Posted by
My criteria is always the same, i look at as much information from as many different points of view as possible when evaluating players
But it's clearly not.
Every reason you have and cite for why you believe Lidstrom should be ahead of Orr and Harvey, Lidstrom is behind on vs Bourque.
Read below, its from from OP and includes everything that Lidstrom did before Harvey gets a mention with his 2nd to Kelly in 52. Harvey played in 4 seasons in the NHL up to and including his age 26 season.
Below is what Lidstrom did the same age and younger,
6 NHL seasons which includes
In his 1st season in 92 he is in the mix for the Calder (probably should have won it) and was
8th in all star voting for Dmen
93(22) He suffers a bit of the sophomore slump.
94 (23) He has
one vote placing him 20th overall for an all star berth
95 (24) Doesn't figure in Norris or all-star voting due in part to shortened season and limited voting.
Still overall in his 1st 3 years he has been pretty productive and has been during that stretch at least one of the top 20 Dmen overall IMO.
Funny, that looks like 4 seasons you just went through before Lidstrom really got noticed. Just like Harvey.
96 (25) he places
6th in Norris and all-star voting behind Chelios, Bourque, Leetch, Vlad Konstantinov and Paul Coffey (that's 2 guys from Canada, 2 from Europe and 1 from US)
97 (26) he places
6th in Norris and all star voting again behind Leetch, Vlad, Sandis Ozolinsh, Chelios and Scott Stevens (only 1 Canadian this year)
That's part of his record.
You'll have to excuse me if I find your sudden ability to count all-star births a little...surprising.
So...your argument is that Lidstrom was recognized to be better earlier than Harvey.
So if I were to say...go back in the Bourque vs Lidstrom thread, what responses do you think I will find from you about Bourque's actual Calder, 19 All-star nods and 19 top 4 Norris finishes?
I KNOW what I will find, I'm just asking if you know?
Okay suspicion confirmed that you treat each era as the same which it clearly isn't.
I treat each player as playing in the best league possible at the time they played.
The sticky has nothing to do with how one compares to ones peers and what that peer group is like and consists of.
And if you stuck to simply peer vs peer comparisons, it wouldn't be an issue.
Both Lidstrom and Weber were in the mix and would have been worthy winners of the Norris, the voting was extremely close in both cases. Weber gets robbed in 12 as well but I will get to that later.
Weber vs Karlsson in '12 could have gone either way.
Blake vs Lidstrom in '98 could have gone either way.
Lidstrom over Weber in '11 was a joke.
But hey, lets find out how people feel...
So I guess the voters for Norris were wrong in 96 and 97 when Nick was 6th in voting for the Norris? Maybe it was his highlight reel that confused the voters right?
You aren't going to get alot of support claiming that Coffey was near as good as Lidstrom defensively at any point in his career period.
No, nor would I expect to.
I was simply stating that Lidstrom had not separated himself defensively yet by any where near the degree your revisionist history is making out.
Well it's one way of looking how a player stacks up in his career and I took the playoffs as the example as I did an in depth comparison of Norris voting between Harvey and Lidstrom for the regular seasons.
I could have mentioned how Lidstrom stacked up to Harvey all time in points ect but that would ahve been unfair since there eras were vastly different right?
Both Leetch and bourque are better offensively than Lidstrom. Why didn't you post how Harvey stacks up in the regular season since that was the original comp?
Heh dude, the only thing I was pointing out was how ridiculous and biased the way you laid out those stats was.
Unless every other player you're including in that list played the exact seasons or played all of their season within that threshold, it's simply not going to be a fair comparison.
Nice set up of the straw man here which is the usual last resort.
Take a good look here
Do you see the column PP% and how it is generally lower in the time that Bourque and Coffey played in compared to Lidstrom?
I'm really not sure what point you are trying to make here.
Right back at ya.
I have no idea what PP%'s and less opportunities today have to do with Even Strength scoring.
Oh yes the one season where Letang is injured, Pronger as well, so is Big Buff.
Even with how well Letang was playing offensively last season, he was only on pace for 40ES points, which btw, would have also been more than Lidstrom ever had in a season and would have matched the highest total since Leetch, Bourque and Coffey. That being Green a few years ago.
Big Buff's ES totals as a D-man was 29 in 81 games in 10/11 and he was on pace for 40 last season.
Not to mention were scoring was lower in the more defensive Western conference and the unbalanced schedules as well.
One player in the Western conference was in the top 11 of scoring overall, I guess the superior talent is in the east right?
Careful, I will turn around and use this exact argument for Bourque while playing in the much stingier East in the 80's and early 90's.
I'll leave it up to you as to how much credence you truly want to make of this
If Karlsson does it again, heck even by 25% and plays more than 7th on his on team for Dman PK, then you might be onto something until then it's a perfect storm unlikely to repeat itself even if Karlsson remains a last resort on the PK.
I'm kind of failing to see what playing on the PK has to do with Even Strength or PP scoring
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