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11-22-2012, 07:07 AM
Bleach Clean
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Cont. VKW: Because "value" or "weight" is an abstract notion. Filling needs is what makes one's team more competitive(either in the short term or long term, depending on the team's goal).

Except that Lupul doesn't fit a need either. You are advocating a plan of action that Lupul does not fulfill. He's not a RW. He's also not a heavy goalscorer. He's pretty much another top6 option, that's it. In fact, I went over comparing Lupul to Higgins in the last thread, give it a read.

_Any_ deal with TO will be about value and not need. Both are abstract notions with regards to the assets TO provides.

Well, I suppose it's simply semantics, but by your logic the Leafs don't have a hole at number 1 C, as the player there isn't absent, they have Bozak.(and if you want to use Kassian to fill the hole, they have Kadri). As a cup contender we should have higher standards on what our forward group should look like.

Apples to oranges (this seems to be a running theme in your posts). You are proposing a replacement for Bozak, while I'm suggesting a replacement for Lupul with Higgins, Hansen, Raymond or Kassian. Which team is more capable of doing that in house? For VAN, they have 3 top 6 forwards _right_now_ vying for that 2nd line RW spot, and Kassian (wildcard). For TO, they have to find a C better than Grabovski to unseat Bozak = extremely difficult to do.

Again, take a look at my Higgins vs. Lupul comparison.

Sorry, if I wasn't more clear, I was responding to your direct question of if Bozak/Macarthur + Kadri is better than Lupul, which is a no imo. Kulemin + Kadri I would prefer to Lupul, but Lupul + Blacker I would prefer to that.

So what you are saying is that Lupul is not imperative to acquire.

Also, the fact that you admitted Kulemin + Kadri is better than Lupul only confirms that you also employ that abstract notion "value" when looking at deals. Funny how that works.

Lupul's track record is that he produced more getting top line minutes as a LW than playing behind Perry and Selanne as a RW. I think that his jump in production is far more related to his increased amount of quality ice time as opposed to switching sides.

It's _both_, and more! It's top line ice, it's playing with Kessel, it's moving wings, it's top PP time, and more... You're saying it can't be that he switched wings, which is just completely false. He had his best year at LW. You can't discount it as having helped him. You're saying it's all these things _except_ switching wings, which you regard as irrelevant, which I think is out to lunch.

How can you discount it? Again, his _best_ season came on that wing. Nothing you say changes that fact. This is evidence, yours is supposition. If you want to prove your case, show me a large sample (a season's worth) where he's _known_ to be on the RW and has produced at a PPG clip? Until then, you've got nothing.

Also, just because it requires more skill to play the offwing doesn't mean skilled players automatically do better there.

And the biggest point for me, which you've never yet addressed, is even if Kadri turns out to be the perfect RWer, he wouldn't be hitting his prime until half our core is out of their primes.

Odds are skill players do better offensively on their off-wing, that's my only contention with Kadri. It's not a guarantee. Even in juniour, he _looked_ just as dangerous on his off wing. LL also confirms that he wants to see Kadri on the right... There's something to draw on there. A positive, instead of a negative. Likewise, you can draw on Lupul's shift to the LW producing his best season being a positive, not a negative or even status quo.

Actually I did address your point about Kadri being younger and Lupul being in his prime. Basically, Lupul is too helter skelter to bank on, even in his prime. He's worn out his welcome in PHI, EDM and ANA, so how can this team expect a consistent performance? Do they have a Kessel to carry him? Thus, when faced with those question marks, and other "limiting" factors here (like playing on the 2nd PP unit), is a 0.5 PPG projection (based on Kadri's small NHL sample) all that different from Lupul's 0.62 PPG career avg this coming year? Note: This assumes Lupul is the picture of health and plays 82 games... yeah I know.

In other words, if Lupul comes here and produces even at his career PPG average, assuming excellent health, he's a 51 point player. Now factor in more focus on defense, 2nd unit PP time, 2nd line ice, a worse offensive counter-part in Kesler, and his regular health issues - Do you see that avg staying the same? If not, then why not bump up a Higgins or a Hansen that gets close to his PPG avg _and_ they do everything else away from the puck. Meaning, he would essentially get lost in the shuffle here if he's not consistent offensively = good luck.

Last edited by Bleach Clean: 11-22-2012 at 07:17 AM.
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