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11-22-2012, 08:55 AM
Vankiller Whale
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Except that Lupul doesn't fit a need either. You are advocating a plan of action that Lupul does not fulfill. He's not a RW. He's also not a heavy goalscorer. He's pretty much another top6 option, that's it. In fact, I went over comparing Lupul to Higgins in the last thread, give it a read.
He's more of a RW than Kadri is, regardless of your opinion on how Kadri is somehow better there. Plus we've all been saying we need a playmaker for the 2nd line who might be able to finally make some chemistry with Kesler and Booth.

_Any_ deal with TO will be about value and not need. Both are abstract notions with regards to the assets TO provides.
Need is not an abstract notion. We've scored 14 goals in our last 12 playoff games. That is clearly representitive of our lack of scoring, which needs to be addressed now.

Apples to oranges (this seems to be a running theme in your posts). You are proposing a replacement for Bozak, while I'm suggesting a replacement for Lupul with Higgins, Hansen, Raymond or Kassian. Which team is more capable of doing that in house? For VAN, they have 3 top 6 forwards _right_now_ vying for that 2nd line RW spot, and Kassian (wildcard). For TO, they have to find a C better than Grabovski to unseat Bozak = extremely difficult to do.
We have three tweeners and a rookie who might be able to fit there, but as a cup contender we should have higher standards as to who sits in our top-6. Higgins has nowhere near the talent as Lupul has.

So what you are saying is that Lupul is not imperative to acquire.

Also, the fact that you admitted Kulemin + Kadri is better than Lupul only confirms that you also employ that abstract notion "value" when looking at deals. Funny how that works.
I feel that the offense provided by Kadri + Kulemin combined could supercede that of Lupul's as early as this year. I don't see what the problem is with that.

It's _both_, and more! It's top line ice, it's playing with Kessel, it's moving wings, it's top PP time, and more... You're saying it can't be that he switched wings, which is just completely false. He had his best year at LW. You can't discount it as having helped him. You're saying it's all these things _except_ switching wings, which you regard as irrelevant, which I think is out to lunch.

How can you discount it? Again, his _best_ season came on that wing. Nothing you say changes that fact. This is evidence, yours is supposition. If you want to prove your case, show me a large sample (a season's worth) where he's _known_ to be on the RW and has produced at a PPG clip? Until then, you've got nothing.
Lupul has never had quality ice-time/linemates as a RW in Anaheim. He did as a LW in Toronto. Almost any player would see their point totals increase. Why do you assume it increased solely because he moved to LW? Why do you assume that has anything to do with why it increased? Maybe if he had played RW with top-6 minutes he would have done even better? There's absolutely no reason to say Kadri will do any better than Lupul at RW.

Odds are skill players do better offensively on their off-wing, that's my only contention with Kadri. It's not a guarantee. Even in juniour, he _looked_ just as dangerous on his off wing. LL also confirms that he wants to see Kadri on the right... There's something to draw on there. A positive, instead of a negative. Likewise, you can draw on Lupul's shift to the LW producing his best season being a positive, not a negative or even status quo.
Yeah, a highlight clip of Lupul in junior also showed him doing well on the right. It's not like Kadri has any full seasons played at RW that show he's done better there than at LW. Anything you say on that is simply speculation, no different then me speculating that Lupul's transition from RW to LW had far less to do with his breakout season than finally getting quality linemates and icetime. And I would want to put him on the 1st PP unit with the Sedins as well, and let Kesler anchor the 2nd PP unit anyways.

Actually I did address your point about Kadri being younger and Lupul being in his prime. Basically, Lupul is too helter skelter to bank on, even in his prime. He's worn out his welcome in PHI, EDM and ANA, so how can this team expect a consistent performance? Do they have a Kessel to carry him? Thus, when faced with those question marks, and other "limiting" factors here (like playing on the 2nd PP unit), is a 0.5 PPG projection (based on Kadri's small NHL sample) all that different from Lupul's 0.62 PPG career avg this coming year? Note: This assumes Lupul is the picture of health and plays 82 games... yeah I know.

In other words, if Lupul comes here and produces even at his career PPG average, assuming excellent health, he's a 51 point player. Now factor in more focus on defense, 2nd unit PP time, 2nd line ice, a worse offensive counter-part in Kesler, and his regular health issues - Do you see that avg staying the same? If not, then why not bump up a Higgins or a Hansen that gets close to his PPG avg _and_ they do everything else away from the puck. Meaning, he would essentially get lost in the shuffle here if he's not consistent offensively = good luck.
Except his career average includes all the time he's been stuck in a bottom-6 role, so 51 points as a third liner is actually pretty impressive. As I've said numerous times, his being upped to the seeing quality ice-time was a lot more of a reason for his breakout season. Anyone who's watched him can tell he's more skilled than Hansen or Higgins. And why do you assume his linemates in Vancouver would be worse than in Toronto. Kesler and Booth are not scrubs, and I'd put him on the first PP unit with the Sedins(unless you think it's silly to compare the Sedins to Bozak-Kessel as well).

What it boils down to is if you think that Lupul is legitimate top line talent or not. I think he is. You can assume he'll end up being injured and be buried behind Higgins on the depth chart, but that's ridiculous. He's certainly more of a lock for our roster than Kadri.

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