The Luongo Thread: Another Brick in the Wall Edition
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11-22-2012, 09:27 AM
Join Date: Aug 2006
Originally Posted by
He's more of a RW than Kadri is, regardless of your opinion on how Kadri is somehow better there. Plus we've all been saying we need a playmaker for the 2nd line who might be able to finally make some chemistry with Kesler and Booth.
Putting words in my mouth (again): I never said Kadri would be "better" on RW in the NHL than Lupul. I'm contending Kadri wouldn't (likely) lose anything switching wings while Lupul would. It's based on his skillset and left-shot, and Lupul's history.
Kadri doesn't _seem_ to lose anything on either wing, while Lupul does (see last year's stats). His most recent stats show he's better on LW. If he can be just as good on the right, I'm pretty sure you can dig up the data of when he played RW in EDM and PHI (since ANA seems to be a sticking point due Perry) and gather a sample (80+ games) to prove your case (show me he's PPG in that role). Go for it... (My sample is this past season btw)
Need is not an abstract notion
. We've scored 14 goals in our last 12 playoff games. That is clearly representitive of our lack of scoring, which needs to be addressed now.
Need _can_ be abstract. What you are doing here is identifying a problem and subjectively ascertaining what you _need_ to fix it. You think we need Lupul. I disagree. Clearly, our perceptions don't align -- but how can that be if Need is objective? You get what I'm saying? The fact that we disagree means that need is not objective in this case. You are wrong.
You have showed that you recognize value, another abstract concept, even in a hypothetical swap of Kadri + Kulemin vs. Lupul. You told me which you weighted more/less. Meaning, an evaluation was done and an opinion given. Why did you do that if you don't believe "value" has relevance in trade talk? Understand? So when I bring up value as a point for accepting Kadri, you should not dismiss it.
We have three tweeners and a rookie who might be able to fit there, but as a cup contender we should have higher standards as to who sits in our top-6. Higgins has nowhere near the talent as Lupul has.
Huh? We have three top6 forwards to put there. Players that have produced at a top6 rate, even as recently as last year. That's not a hole. Period. You can upgrade the position, but it isn't a hole. I mean, how many NHL teams have depth enough to be able to claim that? Your expectations are insanely high. Not to mention that placing those expectations on Lupul is highly dubious.
No matter what you say, Lupul produced at his best clip on the LW in TO. I will keep repeating this fact.
So to re-iterate: 51 point Lupul with more limitations here vs. 43 point Higgins. Is 8 points worth the difference of everything else Higgins does? If it's equal, now start applying the new limitations to Lupul in this new environment and it gets worse... Do you contend any of this on a stats based level? Again, note: I'm being kind by not projecting games played, giving Lupul 82, and getting the same ice time here that he has averaged over his career (even though I know it's not likely).
I feel that the offense provided by Kadri + Kulemin combined could supercede that of Lupul's as early as this year. I don't see what the problem is with that.
Question: What do you project Kadri's offense to be in his first season and why?
Lupul has never had quality ice-time/linemates as a RW in Anaheim. He did as a LW in Toronto. Almost any player would see their point totals increase. Why do you assume it increased solely because he moved to LW? Why do you assume that has anything to do with why it increased? Maybe if he had played RW with top-6 minutes he would have done even better? There's absolutely no reason to say Kadri will do any better than Lupul at RW.
If Lupul shifting wings is irrelevant, show me it is by providing the sample I requested above.
Yeah, a highlight clip of Lupul in junior also showed him doing well on the right. It's not like Kadri has any full seasons played at RW that show he's done better there than at LW. Anything you say on that is simply speculation, no different then me speculating that Lupul's transition from RW to LW had far less to do with his breakout season than finally getting quality linemates and icetime. And I would want to put him on the 1st PP unit with the Sedins as well, and let Kesler anchor the 2nd PP unit anyways.
So the point of using an exception to prove the rule completely went over your head. Gotcha. This is logic 101 VKW... You said Kadri never played RW in his life, I _proved_ otherwise, you admitted you were wrong. Essentially, I used the exception to _disprove_ the rule/perception. Then, you used select YT clips to "prove" Lupul is just as good at RW as he is at LW... Again, what is that in the face of his latest career season at LW, as a PPG player? Nothing. It is instead the exception to _prove_ the rule. Which is the opposite of what I did. Tell me you understand this and restore my faith in humanity.
Except his career average includes all the time he's been stuck in a bottom-6 role, so 51 points as a third liner is actually pretty impressive. As I've said numerous times, his being upped to the seeing quality ice-time was a lot more of a reason for his breakout season. Anyone who's watched him can tell he's more skilled than Hansen or Higgins. And why do you assume his linemates in Vancouver would be worse than in Toronto. Kesler and Booth are not scrubs, and I'd put him on the first PP unit with the Sedins(unless you think it's silly to compare the Sedins to Bozak-Kessel as well).
What it boils down to is if you think that Lupul is legitimate top line talent or not. I think he is. You can assume he'll end up being injured and be buried behind Higgins on the depth chart, but that's ridiculous. He's certainly more of a lock for our roster than Kadri.
It's ridiculous to classify an injury prone player as injury prone...
Question: If you view Lupul as a legit 1st line talent, why would you value Kadri (prospect) + Kulemin (2nd/3rd line tweener) over him? Hmmmm?
Also, how does a legit top line talent get laughed off 3 teams by age 27, the last one trading him as a salary dump?
Lastly, forget Booth. Kesler is the best player on the 2nd line, and Lupul would be his linemate, and he (Kesler) is not as good as Kessel offensively.
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