The Luongo Thread: Another Brick in the Wall Edition
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11-22-2012, 12:36 PM
Join Date: May 2012
Originally Posted by
Putting words in my mouth (again): I never said Kadri would be "better" on RW in the NHL than Lupul. I'm contending Kadri wouldn't (likely) lose anything switching wings while Lupul would. It's based on his skillset and left-shot, and Lupul's history.
Kadri doesn't _seem_ to lose anything on either wing, while Lupul does (see last year's stats). His most recent stats show he's better on LW. If he can be just as good on the right, I'm pretty sure you can dig up the data of when he played RW in EDM and PHI (since ANA seems to be a sticking point due Perry) and gather a sample (80+ games) to prove your case (show me he's PPG in that role). Go for it... (My sample is this past season btw)
Interesting how you ask for a sample of 80+ games when Lupul only played 66 this year. And obviouslu his PPG in his first few seasons in the league will be less than they would be in his prime-exactly the reason why I don't expect Kadri to make a significant impact alone that would make it worthwhile to pass up on Lupul for the next few years when we have the best shot at the cup.
Need _can_ be abstract. What you are doing here is identifying a problem and subjectively ascertaining what you _need_ to fix it. You think we need Lupul. I disagree. Clearly, our perceptions don't align -- but how can that be if Need is objective? You get what I'm saying? The fact that we disagree means that need is not objective in this case. You are wrong.
Okay, so we can agree to disagree on whether or not we need to add a top-6 forward. Fine, I guess it's case closed.
You have showed that you recognize value, another abstract concept, even in a hypothetical swap of Kadri + Kulemin vs. Lupul. You told me which you weighted more/less. Meaning, an evaluation was done and an opinion given. Why did you do that if you don't believe "value" has relevance in trade talk? Understand? So when I bring up value as a point for accepting Kadri, you should not dismiss it.
I don't understand. I'm not saying Lupul would help us more than the rest of the Leafs roster combined. I think it's fairly likely that Kulemin and Kadri combined generate more offense than Lupul alone. That is all.
Huh? We have three top6 forwards to put there. Players that have produced at a top6 rate, even as recently as last year. That's not a hole. Period. You can upgrade the position, but it isn't a hole. I mean, how many NHL teams have depth enough to be able to claim that? Your expectations are insanely high. Not to mention that placing those expectations on Lupul is highly dubious.
Well, if we look at past cup winners, their playoff scoring was way higher than ours? Why is that?
No matter what you say, Lupul produced at his best clip on the LW in TO. I will keep repeating this fact.
No matter what you say Lupul produced at his best clip in TO given proper linemates and ice time. It literally makes no sense why you would think your reason is more likely.
So to re-iterate: 51 point Lupul with more limitations here vs. 43 point Higgins. Is 8 points worth the difference of everything else Higgins does? If it's equal, now start applying the new limitations to Lupul in this new environment and it gets worse... Do you contend any of this on a stats based level? Again, note: I'm being kind by not projecting games played, giving Lupul 82, and getting the same ice time here that he has averaged over his career (even though I know it's not likely).
It's not just about points either. If we can get a playmaker to help create chemistry so we're not running a helicopter line that results in Kesler wearing himself down, it would help benefit the entire team as a whole. And again, given top-6 minutes and playing with the Sedins on the PP will boost his point totals, if that's what you care about.
Question: What do you project Kadri's offense to be in his first season and why?
I expect him to show flashes of offensive instinct but to not be consistent enough in his rookie year to merit getting top-6 minutes. So maybe around 40 points, while being a bit of a detriment on the ice while he's not producing. Eventually in a couple of years he would be well adjusted enough to put up 60-70 points, but I see that as being at least 3 years down the road. This is only my opinion though, but if you think it's more likely Lupul get's a concussion in his first game and Kadri wins the Calder, go ahead.
If Lupul shifting wings is irrelevant, show me it is by providing the sample I requested above.
Then why haven't you showed me Kadri is able to play RW as well as he can LW? Since a highlights video doesn't count, show me a large sample size where Kadri played RW and did well there. And even that doesn't neccessarily mean he's capable of doing it at the NHL level.
So the point of using an exception to prove the rule completely went over your head. Gotcha. This is logic 101 VKW... You said Kadri never played RW in his life, I _proved_ otherwise, you admitted you were wrong. Essentially, I used the exception to _disprove_ the rule/perception. Then, you used select YT clips to "prove" Lupul is just as good at RW as he is at LW... Again, what is that in the face of his latest career season at LW, as a PPG player? Nothing. It is instead the exception to _prove_ the rule. Which is the opposite of what I did. Tell me you understand this and restore my faith in humanity.
I'm saying it's unreasonable to ask me to prove Lupul can produce at RW given top-6 minutes, when you've never proven Kadri can produce as well as he has on RW either.
It's ridiculous to classify an injury prone player as injury prone...
Saying you don't want Lupul because he's injury prone is like me saying Kadri's a bust because he hasn't even made one of the worst teams in the league. Both are unfair statements to make, as there are a lot more factors at play.
Question: If you view Lupul as a legit 1st line talent, why would you value Kadri (prospect) + Kulemin (2nd/3rd line tweener) over him? Hmmmm?
Also, how does a legit top line talent get laughed off 3 teams by age 27, the last one trading him as a salary dump?
Answer 1: Answered previously, the combined offense of Kadri and Kulemin, coupled with Kulemin's two-way game and physicality, tilt it slightly in their favour, but not by much. Just because I say Lupul > Kadri doesn't mean I'd prefer Lupul to Kadri + anyone else.
Answer 2: In Philly(Aged 24/25), Lupul was a legit top-6 player, on pace for almost 60 points/82 games in his two seasons there. He was then stuck on the third line in Anaheim, and had tension with Carlyle, so got traded.
Lastly, forget Booth. Kesler is the best player on the 2nd line, and Lupul would be his linemate, and he (Kesler) is not as good as Kessel offensively.
Why on earth should we only compare Kesler-Kessel and not Booth-Bozak? Lupul will be generating chances for both Kesler and Booth. And again, you don't think given PP time with the Sedins is as good as playing with Kessel?
I hadn't realized that Kessel was this good, somehow magicaly transforming a tweener winger(same definition I'd give Higgins) into a PPG player, while his centre remains a 40s point player.
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