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11-22-2012, 09:31 PM
Big Phil
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Originally Posted by RabbinsDuck View Post
I place a significant premium on overall play (love physical play, but value it much less than actual 'defensive' play), and Mikita is a perfect example of a player who's overall play is enough of an advantage to overcome Esposito's offensive edge (and I view Mikita as a better two-way player than Messier).

Esposito - 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 7, 9
Mikita - 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 3, 3, 3, 4

I'll take Mikita over Jagr for the exact same reason.
I'm fine with that. Mikita is very similar to Esposito in scoring finishes, and his two-way play at least as good of a playoff resume put him slightly ahead.

Originally Posted by Killion View Post
... In 1972, I would have iced the Montreal Canadiens'
without any replacements or additions, behind the bench.
They got bounced out in the first round against the Rangers. You are sure about this?

Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Phil, the Bruins were Orr's team already in 68

Orr in 46 games compared to Phil's 74 was on for 99 TGF (113 for Phil).

So Phil is on the ice for 14 more goals in 28 more games.

In 69 Orr plays in 67 games to Phil's 74.

TGF is 164-163 for Phil, yes that's right he was on the ice for only 1 more goal for than Bobby in 7 more games.

Jean Ratelle who is 2 years older than Phil and was involved in the trade for Phil as well does better than Phil in his post Orr days.

After the trade

Jean 419-155-295-450
Phil 422-184-220-404

There is just overwhelming evidence that Phil's huge peak in Boston relies alot on Bobby Orr and that he might have been a very good player but not the superstar that he looks like with the Bobby Orr affect.
To be fair, a defenseman is going to be on the ice a little bit more than a forward, even a forward with lots of ice time like Esposito. It stands to reason that they'll be on the ice for more goals for per game.

And look at the team Esposito went to. He scored 42 goals on the 1979 Rangers in a year when he turns 37. I mean, really, we are supposed to drop the notion that the guy couldn't muster 50 goals regularly without Orr? Or even crack 60 a time or two? He's still an elite goal scorer without Orr because he played the slot better than any player in NHL history. Ratelle was also barely better than him statistically after the trade all the while being on a far better team and not having the same wear and tear as Esposito over the years. When the 1976 Canada Cup came calling Esposito was on the team and not Ratelle as well.

And I'll say this, which Art Ross does Esposito lose without Orr? My chart above was pretty clear. I'm not sure he loses any of them.

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