Round 2, Vote 5 (HOH Top Goaltenders)
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12-05-2012, 03:01 PM
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: The Triangle
Originally Posted by
Bring Back Scuderi
The only thing Lehman has over Worters is the fact that he actually did something in the playoffs, but then again the Millionaires were a totally different level than the Pirates and Americans.
I agree. The toughest thing about Worters is his team situation, and the effects thereof.
Thus far, no one has resolved the difference between Hainsworth's stats and lack of award consideration/praise as far as I'm concerned. The only piece I know in his favor is the fact that the Habs GAA was brutal in the year between Vezina and Hainsworth, but I dug that up last ATD and don't really know what to make of it without more. If you're privvy to why I should check this hypocrisy please let me know - I'm really hoping someone can go to bat for Hainsworth - but it just hasn't happened.
When I tried to get my head around Hainsworth's stats in the pre-1950 thread I came away unconvinced that he was a lot more than a good goalie who happened to be on the best team. I'd also kind of like to be given a reason to think otherwise, if there is one.
Connell is a borderline 30 guy for me, an Roach is that 40ish range that encompasses so many names. How does a placement around 60 for Lehman jive with a clear step up from those two?
I shouldn't have said he was near 60. I wrote that without really thinking about who he'd be up against at that level.
I understand what you're trying to say here, but a lack of depth for competition doesn't take away from what the players at the top did accomplish and Lehman had Holmes pushing him for many (most?) of his awards in the PCHA.
Yes, but he DIDN'T have anyone pushing him who is likely to go top-30 or maybe top-40 on the list. So the awards recognition he received is a little suspect.
A comparison here might be Cheevers in the WHA. I think he was legitimately a very good goalie at the time, probably underrated in retrospect since he was out of the NHL spotlight. But you can't really bring the Haskin Award (WHA best goalie) up in support of that point, because it's easy enough to point out that he didn't stand a chance against Dryden for a Vezina.
That's why I think two things would really help us here:
1) Go through the seasons and see if there were any years Lehman would have likely contended for NHL All Star status
2) Look closely at 1926 and see how he was regarded when head-to-head with Hainsworth. Both in their actual games against each other, and in general at the end of the season
Is it though? I mean yeah in the grand scheme of things he was third behind Vezina and Benedict, but they never directly competed against each other outside of the playoffs so it's hard to pin him down the way you can with other eras.
Do you think he's very close to either of them?
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