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12-07-2012, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
This is the Norris voting in his CS year of 89

Chris Chelios, Mtl 226 (37-12-5)
Paul Coffey, Pit 115 (14-14-3) Led all Dmen by 38 points
Al MacInnis, Cgy 57 (3-10-12)
Ray Bourque, Bos 56 (3-8-17) 60 GP
Steve Duchesne, LA 30 (2-5-5)
Brad McCrimmon, Cgy 24 (2-4-2)
Gary Suter, Cgy 15 (2-1-2)
Kevin Lowe, Edm 14 (0-4-2)
Phil Housley, Buf (0-2-5)
Scott Stevens, Wsh 8 (0-1-5) 24 years old
Brian Leetch, NYR 6 (0-1-3) 20 years old
Paul Reinhart, Van 4 (0-1-1) 64 GP
Craig Ludwig, Mtl 1 (0-0-1)

Notice the lack of competition that you always like to argue about, aside form 1 or 2 guys it's really weak in his peak raw stats time.
Chelios at the top of his game, a 113 point Coffey and Bourque that missed 20 games. Al's season wasn't what one would call weak either.
Compared to what, a 57 point Lidstrom and a 37 year old 57 point Bourque....ooookkkk

When I get around to the season by season breakdown of nick and that other guy Al will come up as well.

I've had to bump the start of that back a week because of some time constraints but I'm sure you have already written your comments on it and are ready to copy and paste.
I doubt I'm going to have to write much of anything. I also doubt you're going to do all 22 vs 20 seasons either as I think you're going to discover rather quickly just how behind the Eight Ball Lidstrom really is vs Bourque.
As Devil pointed out earlier, it would prolly be better for Lidstrom to do it by age but then again, I have a pretty good idea why you want to do it by season.
It's going to be very "interesting" to see how you spin 19 AS nods to 12 and 19 top 4 Norris finishes to 12. All that on top of Bourque playing 2 more seasons to boot.

What you say is all true but the Red wings don't enjoy any real playoff success until Stevie Y becomes a more balanced player and the Red Wings team identity changes from being watch Steve score to look at that strong 2 way strength down the middle with Federov, Steve, Primeau and Draper.
The Wings don't enjoy any playoff success until Stevie DOESN'T HAVE TO BE all the Wings scoring.
Honestly, this argument is a joke! Yeah Stevie switching his style is the reason nothing to do with the immense talent they surrounded him with later on...gimme a break.

Either way it's really a separate issue from an offensive 1st Dman like Al becoming a more complete player later in his career.

You can look at his adjusted points and Norris voting (and the compettion) to get a better picture of his "value" between the 2 phases of his career. Of course injuries cloud it a bit after 95 as he has only 3 complete seasons, 4 more with around 10 games missed and 2 with around 20.

Still from 95-03 Al is 3rd in dman scoring, along with his improved defensive play.

I think perhaps that you are looking and reading too much into the raw stats and can't or won't adjust for era here.
Where is Al an offensive first D-man?
Al became a better positional D-man later on but he was never "weak" defensively and he sure as hell didn't take a lot of chances at even strength as evidenced by his point totals in that regard.
From 86/87-93/94 Mac averaged 46 PP points a season and only 32 ES points a season.
Al actually played a lot more like Lidstrom. He didn't have Coffey's or Housley's rushing abilities, nor did he have Bourque's possession skills. He was pretty conservative at even strength and then absolutely unloaded on the PP.

Last edited by Rhiessan71: 12-07-2012 at 10:27 AM. Reason: spelling
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