Suppose Brodeur, Jagr, Selanne and Pronger all retire in the same year...
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12-08-2012, 05:37 AM
Join Date: Dec 2010
Originally Posted by
Strawman argument. Nicholls (whose 1989 is underrated) racked up a ton of points playing with Gretzky on the powerplay. Completely irrelevant to Jagr vs Yzerman.
Savard with 5th in Hart voting in 1988; Yzerman was 4th. How big do you think the difference actually was?
I figured that would be the Nicholls response though (why i added the Savard one) it is not completely irrelevant when used as an example of playing . Nicholls was outscoring Gretzky for most of the first half of 89 for that leach argument.
Youre looking at Hart voting (what is the difference between the 4th and 5th btw). There is a lot more to suggest that there was a Gretzky/Lemieux/Yzerman narrative by December 1987. You know i have a list of links in one of my old posts.
Didnt see one for Savard. There was a pretty massive gap statistically for a huge stretch of the year. Plus Yzerman gets injured, his team actually goes on an insane run without him which flew in the face of his MVP candidacy, and he still finishes 4th above him anyway. Think about it.
What about 93? What about Fedorov 94? What about Jagr in Washington who had to go to a defensive system? Did he just find his game again in a new NHL?
There is a clear difference between offensive ability and production. I think it is pretty clear that Yzerman playing in the Red Wings situation in the early 90s with 3 1st line center and a coach who was experimenting with a defensive system until 93 provides a good counter example to a notion that Yzerman just overachieved under Demers or that he fell off a cliff.
Demers never gave Oates icetime because he had Yzerman. As soon as he leaves he starts scoring a **** ton of points. Yes you can say Hull but then he leaves the Blues and still scores a **** ton of points.
As for circumstances, aside from 99 maybe 00/06 Jagr's linemates are significantly better than Yzerman's from 88-93. Yzerman's are likely worse than even 99/00/06 from 88-92. Under Demers in 88 and Murray in 91/92 the Red Wings actually played a defensive style. Under Murray in 91/92 and the first 50 games of 93, Yzerman was sharing his ice time with Jimmy Carson who only played offense. Yzerman killed a ton of penalties in his prime, Jagr did not. The circumstances are quite different.
Last edited by toob: 12-08-2012 at
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