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12-08-2012, 06:34 PM
Czech Your Math
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Originally Posted by toob View Post
This is a bad comparison. You arent comparing the same things. Basically you are looking at wide areas of team success for Detroit and microcosms for Jagr.

For the team successes you did not mention that Detroit missed the playoffs 15/17 times before Yzerman joined the team, 7 of the past 8 years. They made the playoffs 15/17 times since he joined the team, 6/8 in the timeframe you gave. Is there no impact? This should clearly show that Jagr never had a team situation that was as bad as the Red Wings in the 80s.
Similarly, Jagr arrived on a team which had made the playoffs once in 8 seasons and proceeded to make the playoffs for 11 straight seasons and 16/18 in his career. Detroit was in a division with Montreal and the Kings thru '81, so it was a bit tougher to make the playoffs than it was once the divisions were shuffled. Yzerman arrived on a bad team, which remained bad, eventually improved to mediocre and finally became a strong team towards the end of his prime. I didn't say Jagr played on weaker teams, but he didn't play on a team which was more than mediocre without him since at least '96 (except probably last year's Flyers). That included going to a Rangers team that hadn't made the playoffs since '97, despite players like Gretzky, Messier, Leetch, Richter, Lindros, Fleury, etc., and leading them to the playoffs in each of his 3 full seasons there. The Rangers were picked at/near bottom of NHL by most coming out of the lockout, so I don't see how they could have been much better than those 80s Detroit teams.

Originally Posted by toob View Post
As an example of another microcosm forget 1 game tying goal that was pretty, Yzerman has a great playoff run in 87 where he not only was his teams top scorer but was given a ton of credit for matching up against Gretzky and limiting him to 2 points in the entire series. So much for an impact player indeed
If it's a feather in his cap to lose to the Oilers in 5 games, then it's much needed, since in his first 11 seasons Detroit won

You point out all the management/personnel/whatever problems for the Penguins but not for the Red Wings? There is all the same thing of bad management, bad drafting, bad trades (did the Penguins do an Oates for Federko?). But then we are also talking substance abuse, legal troubles of the key players including a regular linemate of Yzerman's, coach losing control of the team, and half the team being replaced once in the timeframe you give.

Originally Posted by toob View Post
Similar thing for scoring finishes. And theres so much they leave out. When Yzerman was 7th in 91 he was 7 points away from 3rd, when he was 7th in 92 he was 6 points away from 4th. Meanwhile in 89 7th place was 45 points behind Yzerman in 3rd place 40 behind Nicholls in 4th. Not all 7th place scoring finishes are created equally. In 90 and 91 Yzerman was 2nd behind Hull in goals. But in 90 he was 8 goals behind and in 91 he was 35 goals behind and tied with other players. Meanwhile in Jagr's era, Yzerman hit the top 10 in 2000 playing a defensive style in his mid 30s after his knee and back injuries had finished him as an elite offensive player. He couldnt make top 10 in 88 despite his insane streak due to the injury. Ron Francis could never hit a top 10 scoring finish in the 80s but he made it in 02.
In a comparison with a player of Jagr's accomplishments, you say "not all 7th place finishes are created equally"... really? Talk about bringing knives to a gun fight!

So Yzerman and Francis each managed a top 10 finish in the early '00s and that supposedly proves that there wasn't strong competition during Jagr's prime? There were anomalies during Yzerman's prime as well (Rob Brown, Carson, Nicholls, Larmer, etc., d-men Coffey, MacInnis, Leetch finishing in top 10, etc.). Obviously Gretzky's and Lemieux's primes coincided more with Yzerman's prime than Jagr's, but even excluding those players doesn't come close to closing the gap in scoring finishes, and outside of those two there was better top competition in Jagr's prime than Yzerman's IMO.

Originally Posted by toob View Post
EV stats? Im assuming given your posting history that you meant adj EV stats for which see above. Because I know that EV stats (or EV + SH as it is sometimes simplified to) show Yzerman clearly ahead peak/prime. But ofc we cant compare actual stats in different eras directly to see who is better but the adj stats dont make any headway into that either. But for sure if you want to claim that Jagr's adjusted stats show that his points were more "valuable" in a sense relative to how many goals per game were scored in the season go for it. I dont know what that really tells us though.
I was talking about ES GF/GA ratio while they were on the ice and their ratio to that of the team without them on the ice (On/Off). Yzerman often didn't create significant advantages (ratios significantly above 1.0) in either or both metrics, even during his prime, while Jagr did for almost his entire career, and had strong ratios throughout his prime.

Originally Posted by toob View Post
Definitely think Yzerman has a clear advantage myself. Put Yzerman on those late 90s Penguins with that coaching and team style and let him loose. He doesnt have to kill penalties or take faceoffs either just focus on offense. Or go back a bit earlier and have Francis take care of some of his defensive duties. And for times, depending on the year have Mario play on his line or at least on the PP. Plus there was all the stuff Yzerman did in his career that Jagr didnt do.
I don't think a prime Yzerman could have led all of those '97-'01 Pens teams and '06-'08 Rangers teams to the playoffs, and he certainly couldn't have led them farther IMO. Again, in his first 11 seasons, Yzerman did not win a playoff series against a team which managed more than 72 points in a weak division. What was he going to do in a difficult division when only 16 of 26-30 teams make the playoffs? He wasn't the offensive force that Jagr was, he generally didn't create nearly as large of ES advantages for his team or in comparison to his teammates, so there's nothing to suggest he could have matched, let alone improved on what Jagr did for those teams. After Yzerman retired, Detroit contended for more Cups. After Jagr left, the Pens became the league's laughingstock.

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