Messier vs. Esposito
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12-11-2012, 08:03 PM
Join Date: Jul 2010
Originally Posted by
You've been on this board long enough to know that when we consider someone "very good" as opposed to "great" there is a difference.
This is where relying solely on stats seems to get you in trouble. There have been enough votes on this thread that have put Esposito above Messier on this poll. I suspect like me a lot of them saw Esposito do what he did best as well. I use that as well as stats because that's how you get the whole picture. The people who voted Esposito ahead of Messier didn't fall off a hay wagon either.
What you are missing here is that while it is true Orr carried the play more (obviously) we have no idea what he would have done either without Esposito.
Yes, you say that his GF:GA ratio is still good, but you have to take into account a lot of other things too. How much more room did each player have on the ice because the team was keying on the other guy? Meaning, if you take either one of Esposito or Orr out of the picture how much changes because now all of the sudden teams are able to solely key on one superstar? So those numbers don't really tell the whole story there.
And I don't know if they win a Cup without Orr. Maybe they win one of those ones, maybe they don't. However, I have said this before on these boards that take either one of Esposito or Orr off those teams and I can guarantee you that Boston doesn't win TWO cups. It just wouldn't match up. The Rangers would have beaten them in 1972 without one of those guys. I really don't like getting into the whole "what if" scenario because you are a product of your own environment and you work for you own shakes in life, but since you brought it up....................I can definitely say there isn't a defenseman capable of rushing the puck up the ice like Orr, but I can also say that perennial 60 goal men are hard to replace as well. Who scores those goals without Phil?
I base it on the seasons with the most time missed. There isn't an individual season that you can look and say Esposito would have scored less significantly. He still does fine in rather large sample sizes without Orr. That's looking at numbers without overanalyzing them to death. When you are basing an argument on speculation you are fighting a losing battle because you are ignoring the things that were actually accomplished.
Although it's a small sample size we actually do see waht Orr did without Phil with the Black Hawks in 77
He is a plus 6 on that team and his PPG pace is over 25 more points than boldireav in a whole season. (Maybe Ivan closes that gap a bit with Bobby for the full year who knows).
And this is Bobby at the end too not prime peak Bobby.
Maybe the guys voting for Phil didn't fall off the hay wagon but how many are just stat counting and not factoring in 2 way play is the real question IMO.
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