Round 2, Vote 6 (HOH Top Goaltenders)
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12-16-2012, 10:01 AM
Join Date: Sep 2009
Originally Posted by
Not really. Contracting from the NHL is different from contracting from the
The point is the letters NHL are arbitrary. Why does it matter if they were PCHA, CCCP, or ABC if they were capable of winning a Stanley Cup against the NHL/NHA? After all, most people concern themselves with finding the best hockey players.
How many other people's posts do you honestly expect me to cut and paste from the past 2(+, including past incarnations) threads? A lot of what I've read has already been summarized or at least introduced, but between the rules, his competition (both locally and "nationally" - in the NHL), the war, and the additional merit I see in NHL achievement vs other league achievement, Lehman just doesn't stack up "overall" for me. If career value has any place in this kind of vote, I just don't and can't treat non-NHL careers as being "equivalent" to NHL careers, no matter how well one subjectively bridges the gap between them, or how "unusual" the PCHA/WCHL/NHA situation/relationship was.
The quotes from newspaper articles that we now have are interesting, but I wonder how we might compare that to judging the Globetrotters based on eye witness reports from their games against non-NBA teams, and trying to make the extension to their "equivalence" to an NBA team (we know that the Globetrotters, no matter how talented, barely competed with college teams, let alone NBA teams
). After all, we're talking about a goalie who must have looked pretty exciting skating around playing the puck all over the place (and scoring, even). But at his best, he basically had 3 defensemen, wacky rules, and one of the best supporting cast rosters in the league preventing him from getting overly burned for it.
Lehman was particularly successful compared to everyone out there, and that deserves a good deal of credit. Heck, he's a Hall of Famer, so he's entitled to a great deal of benefit of the doubt from those who haven't seen him (like, all of us?). Bumping him up over guys like Hap Holmes and Tiny Thompson, though, or Hainsworth? I dunno, I just see too many reasons
to. There has to be a breaking point somewhere where Lehman's excellence vs his PCHA peers slots into the grand scheme, but then all of a sudden we're faced with a couple of more modern goalies with 100s of NHL games, 4 Cup rings, and a Vezina to their credit... on the same list for comparison... at the same stage...
For how familiar you are with the arguments against Lehman buried in these two threads, I wish you were more familiar with the responses to these claims.
The only "subjective bridging of a gap" occurs because like in the 70s and 80s there were legitimately teams full of professional hockey players (outside the NHL) capable of beating the best NHLers. Personally, I think that's worth exploring rather than digging your heels in.
The bolded has been asked and responded to, but I'll raise my concern again. Wouldn't this be a stark difference between the PCHA and every other parallel like the AHL/WHA/KHL? How many globetrotters would be merited Hall of Famers? How many years were the globetrotters capable of beating the NBA champions in a best of 5 series?
My last post featured Art Ross, another Hall of Famer who was reffing the Stanley Cup at the time, suggesting the same thing the papers were. That Vancouver really was that good and if they weren't too roughed up they could win it all.
Please help me understand how this should yield to your comparison or any comparison of a rebel league that wasn't on this level.
Lehman was also judged as the best goalie in the early PCHA before he played in Vancouver.
Last edited by Rob Scuderi: 12-16-2012 at
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