Messier Vs Yzerman
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12-20-2012, 01:12 PM
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
At this point you are starting to zero in on some ridiculous things. I think we know what that means.
Originally Posted by
eva unit zero
There's no way to estimate that. Mikael Samuelsson played in Vancouver and scored about half of his points with one or both Sedins. At times he played on their line. Most Vancouver fans will tell you that he played almost no time with them. If true, why did he share so much scoring with them?
There is no need to argue about something like that. There are sites that keep detailed stats about exactly how long any player played with another.
My estimate was very simplified but it was based on what I had observed with other players. If yougo back and start over using Gretzky’s numbers (which are probably a more reliable sample size) you get the same general answer.
So quit complaining and do better. Make a hypothesis of your own and back it up.
The funny thing is there are written statements of "Messier is the best defensive forward", yet in his career he only had two top ten finishes. 1992 and 1996. 9th and 8th. That's the only time he could be legitimately called "one of the best defensive forwards". Thirteen years into his career, Yzerman had been a Selke finalist. Four years later? Yzerman would win the Selke.
No one argues that Yzerman eventually reached a level of defensive play that Messier never did. But throughout most of Messier’s prime there were only 3 ballots cast, so relying on Selke voting much further than the first few is pretty sketchy. All it proves is that not many people saw him as top-3 in the league.
If Messier had suffered a serious knee injury in 1984, and then suffered a severe neck injury in 1990, do you think he's the same player? He's certainly not winning any Hart trophies.
But he didn’t, did he?
And how does that answer what I said at all?
Below .500 teams are not good teams, it's at least 8 years. Which is "about ten"
The poster used the term “terrible”. Let’s cut the sematic BS, please, and at least agree that a team with 75+ points, although below .500, is not “terrible”. The 40, 66, and even 69 and 70 point wings that missed the playoffs, I could liberally agree were terrible. The ones with 76, 78, 80, 93 points – that’s not terrible.
Nothing I said has been invalidated. The statement “Steve Yzerman played on a terrible Red Wings team for about 10 years of his career” is absolutely false, at best patently misleading if you’re being very liberal and generous.
In the manner of "second on team in scoring in higher era>first on team in scoring in lower era" it is exactly the same. You are going into the details of a particular example to suggest why Messier's second place finish is better than Yzerman's first-place finish.
It was a 1st place finish. And if you go by “adjusted adjusted” scoring (which utilizes the proven concept that into the later 1990s although scoring dropped, only about half that drop manifested itself in drops in elite 1st line forwards), Messier’s playoff PPG in 1990 was still 13% higher than Yzerman’s in 1998. I know I was quoting raw totals to start with, but I wouldn’t do that to be misleading. Adjusted properly, it’s still a good deal higher.
It's hard to judge on playoff scoring finishes without knowing where they finished on their team, how far their team went, etc.
No comment on the study that adjusts their playoff scoring based on age and league scoring and still puts Messier 8% ahead per game over a 20% larger sample?
Messier was sometimes used in defensive matchups, such as the Trottier example. He did not have a defensive ROLE.
How is this much different from Yzerman having Fedorov and Draper? You make it sound like he played every shift against Sakic and Modano. Obviously he didn’t.
Messier's biggest year (90) saw him score 71 ESP and 47 PPP. In 92 he posted 65 and 33. Yzerman those same years was 87/37 and 66/27. In 88-89, Yzerman posted 101/46. In 88-89, Lemieux had 102/79; Gretzky had 100/53.
Messier isn't Mario Lemieux for PP scoring, but he's not Steve Yzerman for ES scoring.
You cherrypicked the two seasons in which PP points comprised a larger percentage of his total. This was the exception throughout his prime – not the norm.
And no one disputes that Yzerman had the higher offensive peak. But obviously that is not the only thing that you judge players on, obviously.
Originally Posted by
eva unit zero
I don't know how I'm supposed to trust your numbers when you can't even get the simple ones right.
In 1982-83 at ES Gretzky had 132, Messier had 69.
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