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12-30-2012, 11:49 AM
  #76
Czech Your Math
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Alright, I was always a big Teemu fan and I know he was a great player on his own comparable to some very great names. But I think we are losing the fact that Simmer was literally a nobody until he teamed up with Dionne. That has to go for something. The guy was a first team all-star two years in a row. We've seen instances with players when they were up and comers and when they hit their stride they exploded, but with Simmer he just went from a guy who had 25 points in 83 career games to a star.
I don't really know Simmer's story before he went to the Kings. It seems like he was a promising player, maybe not destined to be a star, but not a "cup of coffee in the show"/career minor leaguer either. He had 45 G & 99 Points in OHA-Jrs. in '74, although he was generally a year older than his contemporaries (Paiement 50 G & 123 P, Boudreau 46 G & 113 P, Maruk 47 G & 112 P, T.Young 45 G & 106 P, etc.). He was the 39th overall pick, not great, but apparently not a total unknown either. He had 21 points in 35 games right off the bat (age 20-21), which may not sound great, but it was as good of a PPG as anyone on a bad Seals team, and his -2 stands out as the best on the team on a per-game basis as well. For whatever reason, it doesn't look like he was given much of a chance after that, even on those bad teams. He put up solid, but not outstanding numbers in the CHL, then was signed as a FA by the Kings, had very good AHL season in '78 (3rd in goals, top 10 in points) and was finally given a chance mid-way through the '79 season. I think we can both agree that there's a sharp contrast between getting very limited action with the Seals and playing on Marcel Dionne's wing, so it's hard to really conclude too much about his pre-Kings days, except to say that a franchise known for bad decisions and bad play didn't give him a lot of ice time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I will agree that Selanne would have had an NHL with more depth when you compare Dionne in the 1970s, but let's face it, neither Dionne nor Selanne were guys who were worried about 70-80 point men catching them. When you evaluate guys like this I think really only the top level talent matters. There were more Ray Whitneys in Teemu's time, but does that count? Plus once the 1980s arrived and the 21 teams then I think what Dionne saw in the 1980s depth wise and certainly top end-wise, it would be similar to the 1990s with Teemu.
How does "half the players in the top 5/10 in goals/points" bring to mind Ray Whitney? I'm referring to players like Jagr, Forsberg, Bure, Fedorov, Sundin, Palffy, Demitra, Mogilny, Bondra... Alfredsson, Kovalev, Hossa, Elias, Naslund, Hejduk.... Malkin, Ovechkin, Kovalchuk, Sedins, etc., as well as the US players such as Modano, Tkachuk, Roenick, LeClair, Weight, Amonte, etc.

The top U.S. scorer from '72-'87 was Reed Larson, and the only real threats were players like Mullen and Broten, late in Dionne's career. Sure, Dionne had to compete with Stastny, Kurri and Nilsson in the latter part of his prime/career, but there just wasn't the depth to cause a player of Dionne's ability to plummet down the leaderboard so much in many of his off-peak years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I guess we'll have to disagree on this and how boring would these boards be if we didn't, right? I think Dionne beats Selanne based on being slightly more revered during his peak years and being able to maintain a higher level of play for longer with more elite seasons. It isn't like Dionne blows him out of the water, it is just that there is too much offense in Dionne's arsenal to ignore and this is one of those players where I believe he beats him at his own game.
We seem to disagree a lot and that's fine. I think it's about even and only voted for Selanne based on him still being a very good player post-lockout, and Dionne's woeful playoff record. Mainly I voted for him to even up the poll a bit, since I didn't allow an "even" option. I don't expect you to change your mind and side with Selanne, but thought you weren't really being fair in portraying it as a clear, large edge for Dionne. If you prefer Dionne and now admit that it's close, then I'm satisfied with that.

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