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12-31-2012, 02:22 PM
  #70
ContrarianGoaltender
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD View Post
I have to agree, with certain reservations though...

- 2000 to 2009 is incredibly favorable to Luongo. Kiprussof, Lundqvist, Thomas, Turco, and even Joseph can't really be considered, due to not-playing or being post-prime. I don't think anybody had Turco, Theodore, Bulin and Vokoun above Luongo -- 2nd in that span is certainly interesting, but years are slanted to take out of some of his most serious competition (most notably, Thomas and Lundqvist).
I agree that those years work out very well for Luongo, that's how it always works for some guys when you look at periods of a decade or whatever. Switch the years to 2003 to 2012 and I think Luongo still probably ends up at #2 though. He definitely still does if you are mainly going based on some kind of cumulative performance stat like GVT or goals saved above league average. And if you think Lundqvist or Thomas deserves that spot, then they should also be candidates now, as it can still be argued that ranking 4th against the 2003-2012 goalie crop remains more impressive than wherever Giacomin ranked against his peer group throughout his career.

It should also be noted that actual awards voting worked out pretty terribly for Luongo, considering he twice finished as 2AST to Martin Brodeur (including 2007 which many would argue was Brodeur's best season). Luongo also lost a prime season to the 2004-05 lockout. Giacomin, on the other hand, mainly took advantage of the brief window of opportunity between the aging original six goalie cohort and the emergence of Esposito, Dryden, Parent and Vachon, as well the fact that he was on an original six team in the brief period of time when the original six completely dominated against the new expansion teams. He also played a lot of games while many other teams were going with platoons, which certainly helped him out in terms of awards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD View Post
- Vachon didn't had better teammates than Luongo as a whole, unless you give A LOT of importance to his stint as a Hab.
Florida of the 2000s was worse than the 1970s Kings, but sure, Vachon did play in some weak team situations, and overall team effects were generally larger in the '70s which means it is quite possible that Vachon had a harder time of it than Luongo. To rate him above Luongo one would certainly have to make that argument, given that Luongo has much better adjusted save stats (Vachon had a career .896 save percentage compared to .894 league average, Luongo is at .919 vs. .908).

Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD View Post
- Giacomin had bad playoffs... but he ended up being pretty decent in the end when his career was over. Might have cost a few series to his team... that they probably should never have won anyways. A lot like Luongo.
I'd probably agree with that, whether they played poorly or not their teams still generally lost to teams that should have beat them. The Rangers usually ended up losing to Boston or Montreal, and the 2011 Finals was the first time that Luongo's team lost to a playoff opponent with a worse regular season record.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
Really? 1 Vezina vs. 1 Vezina. 1 1st AST vs. 2. 0 2nd ASTs vs. 3. He's not even close as far as accomplishments go, plus he plays on super-defensive over-exposed team and is over-hyped himself.
I guess that depends on your definition of accomplishments.

Career save percentage vs. league average:

Ed Giacomin: .902 career, .902 league average
Henrik Lundqvist: .920 career, .909 league average

That puts Giacomin at zero goals above average, and Lundqvist 144 goals above average so far in his NHL career. There's more to goaltending analysis than simply looking at save percentage, but in this case it seems hard to suggest there was anything other than a sizable gap between the two given that Giacomin had a better defence and was competing against goalies on expansion teams, whereas Lundqvist was dominating against a much stronger and deeper goalie talent pool.

Comparing against backups, it certainly looks like one of them was overhyped and carried by his team while the other was a true difference-maker:

Giacomin, 1966-67 to 1973-74: .618 win %, 2.59 GAA
NYR Backups, 1966-67 to 1973-74: .641 win %, 2.49 GAA

Lundqvist, 2005-06 to 2011-12: .605 win %, 2.27 GAA
NYR Backups, 2005-06 to 2011-12: .518 win %, 2.73 GAA

I always thought the point of goaltending was to stop the other team from scoring goals, not to convince writers to vote for you at the end of the season. In terms of helping his team win hockey games, I'd say that Lundqvist accomplished significantly more.

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